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Training with and without toy
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Old 04-03-2017, 07:00 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Re: Training with and without toy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
This guy has an interesting take on it, I think, I am finding it hard to get through all the woo:

https://naturaldogtraining.com/blog/why-we-push/

boy the woo is a bit much too
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Old 04-03-2017, 07:37 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: Training with and without toy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
This guy has an interesting take on it, I think, I am finding it hard to get through all the woo:

https://naturaldogtraining.com/blog/why-we-push/
Reminds me of a quote:

Why make anything simple and efficient
When it can be complex and wonderful.

This guy is not only complex and wonderful but an awful lot of who-shot-John.
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Old 04-03-2017, 09:52 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Re: Training with and without toy

I think I got bored of the exercise. What is woo and who-shot- John?

Anyway, I agree with Matt's assessment on what's up here. There's really nothing going on that is in dire need of fixing. This dog is a pet, not a patrol dog, or dog that is going to be tasked with any real job of sort. Certainly, if you do the same tasks over and over undoubtedly you will shut a dog like this down. Force it and you get a nice mess to deal with an a dog that avoids you like the plague.

Patty was pretty clear about what she went through with this dog. IMO its pretty forward for people to infer a real understanding of how to "fix" a situation that probably isn't all that well understood to begin with. I mean she just joined the forum and we've seen two videos up until that point?

Patty, as I said to you in my first post I applaud you for being able to bring this together as well as you have. I am familiar with your situation as I did the same thing to a dog I owned. It was well intended, not forced but it resulted in a similar outcome.

Someone else took a look at the dog and said the dog had figured me out and the solution was to make this dog do what I asked of it no matter what. To illustrate the point, the trainer took the leash, left it on a back tie, then she told it to sit and when the dog failed to comply she strung the dog out and choked her until her tongue turned purple. The dog sat not out of compliance but because of the way she was strung up eventually her rear slumped into a sit.
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Old 04-04-2017, 06:12 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Re: Training with and without toy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicole Stark View Post

Someone else took a look at the dog and said the dog had figured me out and the solution was to make this dog do what I asked of it no matter what. To illustrate the point, the trainer took the leash, left it on a back tie, then she told it to sit and when the dog failed to comply she strung the dog out and choked her until her tongue turned purple. The dog sat not out of compliance but because of the way she was strung up eventually her rear slumped into a sit.
This is the reason I am here to try to help others for free and I get paid very well to work with these dogs... I am going to address this issue in an upcoming video with the hope it helps prevent this from happening in the future at least for those that pay attention. Sadly its all to common.
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Old 04-04-2017, 07:38 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Re: Training with and without toy

I appreciate all the advise received. I know that he doesn't have a major issues and I apologize if I implied that he has major issues. I was just trying to explain where we have been and where we are now at in our training. The struggles we have for competing in a trial without the toy are real. I am trying to work through it. Your right he is not a true working dog and he is very much a pet but I do go above and beyond to keep him active physically and mentally. I also do want to get to the point where he can trial with the same attitude as he trains.
Again I truly appreciate all of the advise and ideas.
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Old 04-04-2017, 07:45 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Re: Training with and without toy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patty Beck View Post
I appreciate all the advise received. I know that he doesn't have a major issues and I apologize if I implied that he has major issues. I was just trying to explain where we have been and where we are now at in our training. The struggles we have for competing in a trial without the toy are real. I am trying to work through it. Your right he is not a true working dog and he is very much a pet but I do go above and beyond to keep him active physically and mentally. I also do want to get to the point where he can trial with the same attitude as he trains.
Again I truly appreciate all of the advise and ideas.

Patty what you are actually doing is demonstrating you are intelligent. You are willing to seek help and then actually act upon that which seems to work for you. Please don't apologize and there is nothing wrong with your boy other than a bit of tweaking here and there I assure you. Struggles are real and sometimes we get to a dead end on what to do or to try next and a lot of people at that point just move on to something not so challenging. Im glad you are hanging in there and staying the course. Just stay at it you are doing good.
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Old 04-04-2017, 07:55 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Re: Training with and without toy

Patty
there is absolutely nothing wrong with setting high goals for a pet

and sorry, but i'm missing the part about explaining his past ... and the shutting down part that you want to avoid happening again ??

not seeing a big prob with the toy being behind him but if the absence of a toy is a problem when competing you just need to do more work without it rather than worry about the placement
- i would even try keeping it in my left hand and let him see it...just don't use it; or use one in the other hand he can't see if he needs a tug reward
- or do the drill with only verbal and physical praise and then finish the drill and tug
- if a dog will only work for a toy it's being bribed...i'm sure you know that already but it's not a fatal problem
- take a step back and let him know how much you appreciate HIM working for YOU. yeah, it's old school to get (uncomfortably) animated and crazy, but it worked for decades and is still being taught in the DOD. and that certainly doesn't mean it's only required for military working dog training
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Old 04-04-2017, 07:56 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Re: Training with and without toy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Anderson View Post
Patty what you are actually doing is demonstrating you are intelligent. You are willing to seek help and then actually act upon that which seems to work for you. Please don't apologize and there is nothing wrong with your boy other than a bit of tweaking here and there I assure you. Struggles are real and sometimes we get to a dead end on what to do or to try next and a lot of people at that point just move on to something not so challenging. Im glad you are hanging in there and staying the course. Just stay at it you are doing good.
Brian, thank you! We have come so far in the past few years and I am very proud of that. I still have much work to be done. LOL He is such a fun dog I enjoy so much with him but oh boy can he frustrate me sometimes...
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Old 04-04-2017, 08:02 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Re: Training with and without toy

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick smith View Post
Patty
there is absolutely nothing wrong with setting high goals for a pet

and sorry, but i'm missing the part about explaining his past ... and the shutting down part that you want to avoid happening again ??

not seeing a big prob with the toy being behind him but if the absence of a toy is a problem when competing you just need to do more work without it rather than worry about the placement
- i would even try keeping it in my left hand and let him see it...just don't use it; or use one in the other hand he can't see if he needs a tug reward
- or do the drill with only verbal and physical praise and then finish the drill and tug
- if a dog will only work for a toy it's being bribed...i'm sure you know that already but it's not a fatal problem
- take a step back and let him know how much you appreciate HIM working for YOU. yeah, it's old school to get (uncomfortably) animated and crazy, but it worked for decades and is still being taught in the DOD. and that certainly doesn't mean it's only required for military working dog training
The back story on his shut down is in my intro.
Here is where I struggle without the toy. I myself am unsure because his work without the toy present is very blah. So I am just not sure if or how much blah work to reward.
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:47 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Re: Training with and without toy

Patty
is this the backstory ?

"he totally shut down at just over a year old. I mean didn't want to work at all. I think, against my better judgment, I pushed him to hard too fast. He was ok at home, would play like a normal dog but if I asked for simple behaviors he would slick back his ears, hang his head and just stand there."
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