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Marker training a recall
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Old 11-28-2015, 03:29 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Marker training a recall

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Originally Posted by Nick Hrycaj View Post
Geoff. I fully fully agree with your stance on distractions and distance.

I have only recently began to dabble with the what seems to me to be the newer mindset of marker training (I.e Ellis) used in the positive realm. That said even compulsion training is a marker right? The word no (or something similar) denotes impending Physical correction if compliance is not gained.

I'm not familiar with back chaining but is the come command a simple example of when that would apply? Teach the sit in front and the turn seperate then bring them together?

Back chaining is sorta like that but I'll try to make it a bit easier to understand. For example, competition heeling is a common skill that can be taught "backward" easily. Start by teaching the dog to seek eye contact first by a eye contact game or the like, then the position of the heel, then to search for the position, then to hold position, and give eye contact, then add movement, then get it all to work together! You teach each step separately and then put the steps together in reverse order starting with eye contact first as your foundation.

Yes compulsion training would be considered a marker in the right context with the right timing and the proper context. Goes back to the 4 quadrants of dog training. Which is why Balanced trainers for the most part have better obedience overall than trainers that just do +R or +P as their main focal point.

Ellis always gets lumped into that mindset that he is always a +R guy which in my opinion he isn't, he is one of the most talented guys out there (both as a teacher of humans and trainer) and he is one that falls into a 'Balanced' category for sure.
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Old 11-28-2015, 03:58 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Clear enough.

I agree with what you say about Ellis. I don't suscribe to pure positive stuff but having seen markers in bite work and OB thru Ellis, I am trying to use them more.

To me it takes a realist to be balanced and to know that there will arise times in the dogs life where his actions call for stiff corrections and others where simply withholding the reward will suffice.

Are you aware of any notable service dog trainers? Out of curiosity I would be interested to see how complex assistance tasks are trained and enforced. I presume it presents the same way where marker timing and placement will correspond with dog level and training progression
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Old 11-28-2015, 09:10 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Marker training a recall

you could use -R and markers
without any real "shaping"...

I have seen amazingly fast recalls using markers, and double rewards with
-R work
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Old 11-29-2015, 12:06 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Marker training a recall

My SAR, CDX, SchIII, HT, TT, CGC dog has never had a physical correction other then initial house behaviors and manners. Never for any competition training.

He'll 12 in less then two months.

He was my first dog to do marker training and that's with 50+ yrs of "traditional" correction training behind me before I started markers 12+ yrs ago.

Would I do it again?

I'll take a dog as far as I can but I believe there can be a time and place for corrections with any dog.

I also believe that starting with markers will lessen the need for later corrections way down because the dog has understood the behavior with reward based training first.

Even in bite work, why would a dog refuse a foose command if he learns that compliance will get him that ultimate reward, the bite?!

IMHO Ellis is top shelf in this regard.
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Old 11-29-2015, 04:07 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Cool Re: Marker training a recall

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Originally Posted by Joby Becker View Post
you could use -R and markers
without any real "shaping"...

I have seen amazingly fast recalls using markers, and double rewards with
-R work
ME has a -R marker. He uses the word nope.
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Old 11-29-2015, 04:11 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Cool Re: Marker training a recall

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Originally Posted by Bob Scott View Post
My SAR, CDX, SchIII, HT, TT, CGC dog has never had a physical correction other then initial house behaviors and manners. Never for any competition training.

He'll 12 in less then two months.

He was my first dog to do marker training and that's with 50+ yrs of "traditional" correction training behind me before I started markers 12+ yrs ago.

Would I do it again?

I'll take a dog as far as I can but I believe there can be a time and place for corrections with any dog.

I also believe that starting with markers will lessen the need for later corrections way down because the dog has understood the behavior with reward based training first.

Even in bite work, why would a dog refuse a foose command if he learns that compliance will get him that ultimate reward, the bite?!

IMHO Ellis is top shelf in this regard.
Ellis says to introduce pressure not too soon that they don't understand the command, but not too late or they will not be used to pressure/correction at a time when it will just devastate them. He introduces pressure with the leash after the marker training as a way to introduce pressure.
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Old 11-29-2015, 09:36 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Marker training a recall

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Originally Posted by Nick Hrycaj View Post
Are you aware of any notable service dog trainers? Out of curiosity I would be interested to see how complex assistance tasks are trained and enforced. I presume it presents the same way where marker timing and placement will correspond with dog level and training progression
I'm not really aware of 'notable' service dog trainers in the big scheme of things. You might want to check out Gary Wilkes by googling him and searching him on youtube. As I know he has lots of experience with SD trainers/training, I've talked to him a lot on the internet and had a chance to do a four day workshop with him this year but had a scheduling conflict with a Ring competition. He is worth it to check out.

As well as Kayce Cpver who is a member here, she as well as countless service dogs has trained capuchin monkeys for spoon feeding paraplegics. She has an interesting way to mark the intermediate mark in training and she has helped me immensely in getting my own head around the use of markers for uber complicated tasks.

I self trained my female in my avatar as my own service animal. I had a total hip replacement a few years back and leading up to the surgery I trained her for many tasks. Some of which included helping me get undressed and dressed, bringing the wireless phone to me when it rang, picking up anything I dropped, pick up the cane or crutch, turning off/on lights, brace me when I got up out of chair etc etc.

It helped by having a dog that will try to retrieve anything she will try to carry a bicycle if I ask her to retrieve it, so she is a special dog it isn't as much as me being a good trainer but more about her being a better dog. Like Bob's Thunder all of these tasks were trained totally +R she has seen +P in protection but for service dog tasks none.

All I used was a laser pointer, ball and a clicker it was easy for her.
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Old 11-29-2015, 12:09 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Marker training a recall

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey Eggenberger View Post
ME has a -R marker. He uses the word nope.
I am pretty sure we are not talking about the same thing.
I meant -R as the use of a quadrant of Operant Conditioning, not as a description of a marker for unfavorable actions.
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Old 11-30-2015, 10:52 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Cool Re: Marker training a recall

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I am pretty sure we are not talking about the same thing.
I meant -R as the use of a quadrant of Operant Conditioning, not as a description of a marker for unfavorable actions.
Yes, negative reward. Saying nope or no means you don't get a reward and to try another offer.
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Old 11-30-2015, 11:13 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Marker training a recall

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey Eggenberger View Post
Ellis says to introduce pressure not too soon that they don't understand the command, but not too late or they will not be used to pressure/correction at a time when it will just devastate them. He introduces pressure with the leash after the marker training as a way to introduce pressure.

Agree but I have no problem letting a pup know not to bite god (me). That may be a simple poke with a finger and a no or just a strong no.

I've never had a problem but then I like a pup that has a bit of grit.

To many yrs with terrier I guess.

Keeping my GSD pups from biting me and creating good house manners had absolutely no adverse affect on their bite training.
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