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Hunt vs hunt tests
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Old 11-22-2016, 03:22 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Hunt vs hunt tests

Took Kasbah back in the field with the opening of bird hunt season.
As usual the whole spectum of upland guys in blaze orange were there with the big running dogs,mostly pointers a few setters and a sprinkling of spaniels.
Weather was balmy,but fields dense with thorns scrub bushes, small trees and huge areas of good cover. This is real different from hunt tests generally,flat level and scatteres with dizzied birds 50 to 100 yards apart.
Kas quickly figured what was going on,covered ground sans my whistle direction,put up 5 birds the first day,first two for us and the next 3 for a friend who wasn't having much luck.


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Old 11-22-2016, 08:24 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Way to go Kas!!
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Old 11-22-2016, 10:42 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Hunt vs hunt tests

VERY nice!
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Old 11-23-2016, 05:52 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Hunt vs hunt tests

Nice Job. Thanks for posting news regarding your dog and Dales in general.
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Old 11-23-2016, 11:00 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Hunt vs hunt tests

Sounds like a great way to spend the day.
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Old 11-24-2016, 09:36 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Hunt vs hunt tests

It occured to me that there is a parallel between hunt tests and hunting where the former requires tight obedience,doing hunt like pantomines, points lost for minor obedience infractions and how "real hunting dogs" need to be reigned in to succeed.I was told by my dog having several years hunting I was at a disadvantage competeing in hunt tests. Reasons given include:
Dog would not be used to micromanagement the test required, ie the judge walking not far behind the dog,the birds close with limited escape ability after being dizzied in contrast to wild birds quick to flush and escape,very short relative distance to birds,patterned search and so on...
Seems as there is a parallel with VPG and "real police or protection" dogs.
Just as hard driving hunters may not make best "test takers" do the best VPG dogs make the best real service dogs? What does this mean re: breeding choices?
What does this say to breeding selection for working dogs?

Last edited by Edward S Weiss; 11-24-2016 at 09:46 AM..
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Old 11-24-2016, 10:53 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Hunt vs hunt tests

Edward
glad to see you are enjoying Kasbah

sorry, but i'm not clear on some of the terms you have used

- what does "dizzied" mean ?
- does "test" mean evaluation for sport or trials potential or is it being used as a synonym for sport ?
- does "real hunting dogs" mean a dog that has not had formal training in a sport that mimics real life hunting ?
- how would you classify Kas ?

the term "working" has always had many meanings in the dog world. even the word "real" has a wide variety of interpretations
some breeders are very specific on how they evaluate potential breeding stock. some just want to breed dogs that are easy to control. probably just depends on their end game

PSD's and most MWD's need to "hunt" in the sense that they must find catch and hold rather than find catch and kill that is required of other types of hunting dogs
- that's why i think all the different 'drive' terms have been used to describe canine behaviors when people consider them as "working dogs"
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Old 11-25-2016, 01:01 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Hunt vs hunt tests

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward S Weiss View Post
What does this mean re: breeding choices? What does this say to breeding selection for working dogs?
It depends upon the breeder. Choices are made first and foremost by their established priorities, which most certainly include self interests.
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Old 11-25-2016, 10:54 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Hunt vs hunt tests

In hunt tests birds are made temporarily "dizzy" by a positional technique,then placing them in undergrowth such that the bird does not run off or fly away before a test dog approaches to "flush" ie make the bird or make it fly.
Wild birds in a hunting situation have no such impairment,and are much more elusive.
I' m not critical of hunt tests or VPG but these are simulations which over time seem to drift further from the real life challenges hunting or police service dogs really face.
It has been a few years since I did VPG but many dogs that titled would not necesarily be police service dog quality. In a similiar fashion Hunt tests are fun ...
but.....
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Old 11-25-2016, 11:23 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Hunt vs hunt tests

I think even a top level VPG dog doesn't necessarily make it a great candidate for actual street work.

The character of the dog is critical because the VPG training today is so precise that you don't necessarily see the "real" dog in there and many VPG dogs aren't weaned off the sleeve as would be a street K9. Not all of course.

IMHO I think the good ring dogs are probably close to the stree K9s simply because most of the different ring trails aren't as structured as the VPG dogs.

The dogs are exposed to more different looks in the protection phase.

The excellent street K9 often doesn't have the precise "finishings" on it's obedience to do well in the trials.

That has absolutely NO indication that the dog isn't good on the street.

As to real hunting and trials I can only comment of earth work trials vs real earth work.

I've done booth with the same terriers.

The earth work trials are a timed even so getting down that 30ft tunnel and any sort of "work" on the dog's part will qualify it for the earth dog titles.

That's a 9inch x 9 inch man made tunnel.

In the natural earth work the dog often has to dig and squeeze through roots in order to get up to the quarry and I've had dogs locate under ground 30 -40 feet from the entrance and anywhere from 2-3 feet below ground up to 7-8 ft below ground.

A natural tunnel is rarely larger then 6in diameter and can narrow and open up into a number of different chambers.

It may take 5 -10 mins to find the quarry. Not just beating the 30 sec time limit in a trial.

Not all but I've seen excellent, natural earth working dogs slow down a bit in a trial tunnel simply because they know what's in front of them and it's never a caged rat.

Some trials have what's called a super earth that is longer with many turns, blind ends, water traps, areas the dogs have to dig through, you name it.

"Generally" the natural hunters do better at this.
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