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What do you think about this comment?
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Old 09-17-2016, 12:27 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: What do you think about this comment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Scott View Post
Potatoes/patatoes...... ..... That just doesn't come out right when you can't hear it does it.
It doesn't fit this discussion. Maybe I'm too serious but I don't take such a cavalier attitude about this topic. It's either there and complete, partial, segmented, isolated, or its not. I don't know why but I just can't be so flippant with this topic.

I should say, that's how I interpreted your response = oh well.
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Old 09-17-2016, 11:29 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: What do you think about this comment?

Not meant to be but, as always, I respect your views.
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Old 09-19-2016, 01:25 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: What do you think about this comment?

My experience in this area of dog knowledge is probably limited compared to others here, but I do find varying degrees of truth to the quote the OP referenced.

I think some of the herding-type dogs have a more moderate prey drive, at least compared to hunting-type dogs. I will also second the opinion that while herding is, in essence, a truncated prey sequence which relies on some of the same instincts that a true hunting canine does, it also seems to be somewhat of an instinct unto itself. The herding dog, in theory at least, is not taking its prey drives to full completion, and knows how to manage/control the livestock's movement. Now, a herding dog needs to be trained to be good at that, but some breeds (Border Collies, GSD's, Belgian Malinois) seem much more natural at it than others. Whereas a true hunting breed, like a Mountain Cur, Coonhound, or Dogo Argentino could probably be taught to herd, given its breeding and heritage, it isn't the best choice for that activity and vice versa for the herding dogs.

All that said, it seems there are a good many herding dogs, mostly in the sport and police breeding communities, where higher prey drives are being emphasized. I'm sure if a dedicated breeder/trainer started to refocus those drives from human engagement to other animals, those drives could be developed into functional hunting abilities. IMHO, the ideal herding dog strikes much more of a balance between defensive, fight and prey drives whereas a hunting dog will have a heavy and functional emphasis on hunting, and maybe some fight drives depending on the quarry. So on the average, I think herding dogs will never be as prey driven as the functional hunting dog.
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Old 09-19-2016, 03:37 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: What do you think about this comment?

So is there a difference between prey drive and hunt drive?

Is a Lab that will hunt for a ball in the tall grass relentlessly until it finds it, more prey driven than a husky that will hunt and kill bunnies and birds, but has no interest in balls?

I had a Labx that didn't chase cats, other dogs or livestock, but was a serious rodent hunter. High prey drive or no?

My Mal likes to chase stuff and bite stuff, but if his ball gets lost in the grass, he stops searching for it pretty quickly. Does this mean he has low prey drive?

He does like to hunt for field mice, and sometimes catches them. Given a chance, he'll spend quite a bit of time doing this. Does this mean he doesn't have low prey drive?
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Old 09-20-2016, 02:23 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: What do you think about this comment?

This is exactly why it is better to speak in terms of threshold than "level of drive"
A dog can have a low threshold for "prey stimulation" and have a lower overall drive than another dog which has a high threshold but a more enduring drive. I am not saying this is always the case just that this can occur and be misinterpreted as the first dog having a higher prey "drive"

Bottom line is mals do not have as enduring prey INSTINCT as for example a well bred longdog and definitely not as high as a terrier generally speaking. Often people who claim Mals have super high prey drive have not lived with a working bred terrier or Lurcher otherwise they would not make that statement.
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Old 09-20-2016, 11:09 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: What do you think about this comment?

Matt said

" Often people who claim Mals have super high prey drive have not lived with a working bred terrier or Lurcher otherwise they would not make that statement".



Many people will say that the hunt, chase and kill are all a part of prey.
I would for sure put the working bred terrier and the Lurcher in that classification although I don't think it fits all dogs with high desire to chase anything that moves. "Super high prey."

The working bred terrier and the Lurcher were bred intentionally to hunt, chase, kill.

Not to many dogs will pass up a chance to chase a cat yet the "average" dog will quickly change their mind when the cat stops and faces them.

Cautious? Sometimes but again, the "average" dog will bail on closing.

It still, for me, boils down to what the dog was bred for and I think Matt's comment about "thresholds" is more correct then "drive".

Ask 5 different trainers the definitions of "drive" and you can get 5 different answers.
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Old 09-21-2016, 07:57 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: What do you think about this comment?

It does seem that some of these discussions about drive come down to splitting hairs. Does it really matter if the "drive" is motion activated or prey activated? Don't get me wrong, I like hearing everyone's take on the comment, and I learn from all of you. Figuring out what makes my dog tick, how to manipulate what he wants and what drives him is going to give me more in the bank to work with him. If I ever get off my ass and train, that is, lol.

I still have a hard time reconciling the idea of beagles as high prey drive dogs. Most of the ones I've met are sweet, highly food driven and oblivious to everything but what's under their nose. Maybe I just haven't met the right beagles.
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Old 09-21-2016, 09:51 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: What do you think about this comment?

Indeed relating to competitive obedience or sport training it makes not a toss of difference. However in hunting it makes a world of difference. A dog which is purely stimulated by movement will just plain stop it's activity if the "prey" (bunny, hare, fox, pig etc) just stops running. I have seen it with my own eyes. They immediately lose interest in the animal.
A dog which is purely movement motivated (but not object motivated) will just not hunt in the first place.
A dog which is purely movement motivated will get it's ass kicked by animals with teeth, horns or tusks.

Personally I think mals are high up in the prey stakes but they are not as driven as purpose bred hunting dogs. You have deffo met the wrong beagles. Beagles are renowned for being escapologists and dogs that go walkabout, it's this hunting (prey) instinct that causes this.
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Old 09-21-2016, 12:54 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: What do you think about this comment?

Good points, Matt.

I've met beagles that will run, for sure, but hunt, not so much. Perhaps like many other breeds - working line or pet line makes a difference.

Not sure how much of a fight my Mal and Dutchie are up for, but neither will lose interest in something they're chasing just because it stops moving. Nothing like watching your dog parade around the dog park with a dead bunny in her mouth playing keep away.
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Old 09-21-2016, 11:25 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: What do you think about this comment?

As a kid I hunted rabbits behind a number of different Beagles.

What I admired most about them was their desire, drive, etc to stay on the track.

That admirable trait is a "fault" with anyone trying to do any sort of competitive obedience with most ANY hound.

Once their nose is engaged it's damn near impossible to re direct their attention.

Take one for a walk on lead and I bet you have one hell of a time keeping their nose off the ground.

Call it drive or whatever those little hounds have it!
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