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Mal is afraid to heel
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Old 02-09-2017, 12:02 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Mal is afraid to heel

BTW, how do you define untrainable? I mean, what does that look like to you?

Also, what is a dynamic down? A down in motion?

I've got to be missing something. I've read this three times now. Either the dog is unfit for the work or the solution is less complex than believed to be. Worst case scenario there's something anatomical impeding resolution (unlikely).

Assuming he is fit (no nerve issues), I bet this could be fixed in 3 days, a week at most. I'd bet my Dutch on it. I'm not known around here for not keeping my word so let's see what you have going on there.
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Old 02-09-2017, 01:26 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Mal is afraid to heel

this doesn't exactly speak highly of VLK either .... just sayin

hope they are better in person than they are on TV ... a few of their shows were shown over here and i was underwhelmed
- hopefully it was just the editing for TV viewers

i'm also curious about the dynamic down drills ...
problem with online threads is you can only draw mental pics from written words
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Old 02-09-2017, 02:59 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Mal is afraid to heel

what i've read appears to (possibly) be an example (to some degree) of a lack of trust.

the degree isn't clear and my opinion probably won't be agreed with either

but i'll ramble a bit more ...

the more "worst case" it is, the longer it will take to fix, but might be fixed faster if the handler looks at it this way and works on trust building rather than from an OB techniques p.o.v.
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Old 02-09-2017, 03:06 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Mal is afraid to heel

no response yet,
but if it really IS fear based, i'd wash the dog asap and complain that it was ever offered as a dual purpose psd candidate. THAT is the responsibility of the vendor to screen in advance even if the vendor tries to put the monkey (blame) on the handler's back

hope the OP sticks around
has the potential to be an interesting thread
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Old 02-09-2017, 11:44 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Mal is afraid to heel

The problem with the "master trainer" (Hate that title) being gone and the "troops" stepping in to help is, most times, a bad idea. As previously stated, the dog may be handler soft or truly unsuitable for the job. You may have inadvertantly compromised your bond when "the troops" helped you. Without seeing a video we can't truly assess your problem. What you describe may be totally different from what is really going on.
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Old 02-09-2017, 12:02 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Mal is afraid to heel

I appreciate all of the input. I'll try to reply and clarify the issue tonight after I get off work.
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Old 02-09-2017, 01:54 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Mal is afraid to heel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Knauf View Post
The problem with the "master trainer" (Hate that title) being gone and the "troops" stepping in to help is, most times, a bad idea. As previously stated, the dog may be handler soft or truly unsuitable for the job. You may have inadvertantly compromised your bond when "the troops" helped you. Without seeing a video we can't truly assess your problem. What you describe may be totally different from what is really going on.
Howard, given your experience, is there a training/handling protocol that is in place to well, I don't know any other way to say this but basically protect the investment (dog) from misuse/damage, etc? Maybe that sounds a little out there but most of us don't want other people subjecting us or our dogs to things that could potentially send them to a place of no return.

Understood, that there are some dogs impervious to inept handling or harmful treatment (not suggesting that's what happened here) but largely most dogs are not. Surely, the brokers cannot be the ones to solely shoulder the burden should a dog "wash out" and need to be returned because of something that happened after the fact. That said, I'd certainly hope that no one would ever pair one up with a dog unfit for the job.

Maybe there's more support/structure within this process than I realize. But if not, then I must ask why not. Equipment issues and control is important so where do the dogs fit into this?
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Old 02-09-2017, 06:45 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Mal is afraid to heel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicole Stark View Post
Howard, given your experience, is there a training/handling protocol that is in place to well, I don't know any other way to say this but basically protect the investment (dog) from misuse/damage, etc? Maybe that sounds a little out there but most of us don't want other people subjecting us or our dogs to things that could potentially send them to a place of no return.

Understood, that there are some dogs impervious to inept handling or harmful treatment (not suggesting that's what happened here) but largely most dogs are not. Surely, the brokers cannot be the ones to solely shoulder the burden should a dog "wash out" and need to be returned because of something that happened after the fact. That said, I'd certainly hope that no one would ever pair one up with a dog unfit for the job.

Maybe there's more support/structure within this process than I realize. But if not, then I must ask why not. Equipment issues and control is important so where do the dogs fit into this?

Here's the problem....training dogs is very subjective. This is why we, nor any other agency can create an SOP and put it on paper when an agency tries to get accredited. Because there is an infinate number of variables, there's only one thing that two trainers can agree on, and that's what the third trainer is doing wrong. The agency puts 100% faith in the "professionals" when it comes to sourcing and training a working dog. Now, in the K9 circle there are those that know the score and who they can really trust. When it comes to the vendor shouldering the burden of a washout....well, that's why they give a guarantee (usually 1 year on health, and 2 years on performance...YMMV).


Ref to unsuitable dogs being sold to police/military...it happens. More than you think. I can't tell you how many dogs I've tested that were for sale but shouldn't be police dogs. This is why it's imperative that the person in charge of the K9 unit know what the hell they are doing...or can trust someone who is knowledgeable and trustworthy.
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Old 02-09-2017, 10:11 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: Mal is afraid to heel

Tx for posting that Howard.

a lot of people think that just because a K9 is a PSD or MWD it is the best of the best. reality is different; some are much better than others and the great ones stand out. some don't work as long as we think they should. sometimes a change in handlers solves an issue.
- think i already related this before, but one of the best dogs we had was a very smallish GSD. our two Japanese handlers have small dutch shepherds. big is not always better....fire in the gut is

i don't see the sourcing side for mwd's, but i can see how it's hard for a PSD vendor to build up credibility in the LE world. unfortunately in our new world, demand outstripped supply and that will only mean a reduction in quality ... too easy to breed more and get less

but i'm a dreamer ... i still hold vendors to the same standard as a breeder and that is VERY high. i'm a strong believer that they should be the one to evaluate the potential for PSD work even tho the individual department or agency needs to know what they are getting before they buy

- at least in LE you will find out if the dog WILL perform on the street when it needs to.
- not as much in the MWD world (for patrol work). very few get tested for real

but what really scares me are the PPD vendors.
- the average PPD will NEVER be tested. training can be done with smoke and mirrors and from looking websites ... for people who think the more it costs the better it must be ((((

not as much in the MWD world (patrol work). very few get tested for real
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Old 02-09-2017, 11:23 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Mal is afraid to heel

Well said Howard.

When someone asks me to help them pick out a puppy or dog (I don't do LEO K9s) I will always tell them this is what "I" see in the pup or dog.

I know what I could do with what I like in a dog or pup but that, more often then not, will have nothing to do with how that dog or pup will be raised outside my control.
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Last edited by Bob Scott; 02-09-2017 at 11:32 PM..
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