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dog and human bonding
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Old 05-06-2016, 02:50 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Re: dog and human bonding

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick smith View Post
cats....evidence of a close bond can be MUCH clearer than with a dog
handle a cat when it is young and it will trust and respect you all its life to handle it
allow a cat to grow up and mature without a lot of close, physical handling and you run the risk of being slashed and bit no matter how strong of a "bond" you think you might have developed over the years
I think if you handle anything enough when it is young it will adapt to the handling and be tolerate of it so I'm not sure this indicates a "bond" such as we are discussing or just acceptance of the situation.

I've met my share of cats handled from birth that end up almost feral in nature. It could have been the wrong handling, wrong owner, wrong household, wrong housemates, (just as with dogs) that are factors with why these cats were nasty.
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Old 05-06-2016, 06:43 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: dog and human bonding

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick smith View Post
cats....evidence of a close bond can be MUCH clearer than with a dog
handle a cat when it is young and it will trust and respect you all its life to handle it
allow a cat to grow up and mature without a lot of close, physical handling and you run the risk of being slashed and bit no matter how strong of a "bond" you think you might have developed over the years //rotflmao//
Nah. Cats scratch and bite. That's what they do.

Although, I have to admit that there are a rare few that appear a bit from out of this world. My uncle has a farm cat that visits his place. No one owns this cat and he is without question one of the coolest cats I have ever met. He comes in the house, stays on a mat when he does, meows to go out, sticks around and a few days to a week later or so he leaves only to return again a few months later.

Who bonded with him and when? Why is it that this cat, which was born on the property and maintained as a farm cat his entire life, allows handling, even grooming from folks he comes in contact with a mere few times a year? I don't know. But he stuck it out with me for a week while I watched the place. It was just me and the cat hanging out. Why stick around with a stranger? He also stuck close by when I got sick and it was one of the few times I ever saw him leave the mats (he ended up on the couch with me).
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Old 05-06-2016, 11:18 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Re: dog and human bonding

Respecting and leadership are all a part of bonding/connection IMO.

One of my biggest grips about any training but marker training in particular is that it doesn't touch on respect or leadership.

The successful marker trainers in the working dog club I belonged to were those handlers that had this "bonding/connection".

Those that didn't have this could spend forever trying to get good responses from their dog.

That can still go for ANY training method of course.

A handler that doesn't get a respond from the dog without bribe or threat will never get the bonding/connection that will allow consistent, positive response from the dog.

Like someone else said "you know it when you see it".

Probably my idea of the foundation of bonding/connection" is that I want to see a dog that wants to be with the handler, leash or not.

That means with no food bribes or threats of correction.

Don't know that I can get any more specific then that.
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Old 05-07-2016, 02:30 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Re: dog and human bonding

re : "Like someone else said "you know it when you see it".

yep....in my experience this is the most generally accepted opinion
- not many people think it is measurable and relate it to specific interactions
- i prob do it more than others because i am always looking for reasons behind behaviors and i usually work with owners/handlers with problems

- until it is confirmed in double blind studies it will probably remain an opinion and everyone will have one
- doubt that will happen .. no money in it

tx for the all your responses

if anyone wants to look into it deeper PM me for my long list
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Old 05-07-2016, 01:24 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Re: dog and human bonding

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick smith View Post
.....................................

so here’s my questions :
- how do you actually evaluate the bond when you are assessing a dog and owner/handler ?
- what types of interactions show you how their bond is ? You can see it in the physical touching that is initiated by both the dog and handler. You can also see it in the non-verbal/non-physical cues that they give each other.
- what types of interactions can be used to strengthen a weak bond and make it stronger ? Darn near anything that concludes with a positive outcome. Could be as simple as going for a hike or something stressful like training around fire/smoke. The interactions don't have to be 100% fun & happy. Stress can be used constructively. As long as the overall interaction, and especially the conclusion has a positive outcome then it strengthens the bond.
- what types of interactions would be your red flags that the bond is not what it should be ? An apparent inability for the handler to read his dog, or when the dog seems constantly confused.
- does the bond need to be continually reinforced over time or does it stay the same once the relationship has been established ? (for example : bonding with your pup)Reinforcement makes for a closer bond.
- does it take a certain level of “dog/handler reading” skills to do this or should anyone be capable of evaluating the bond ? (iow, can it be self evaluated?) Casual pet owners who couldn't teach a dog to walk on leash if their life depended on it are not going to be capable of evaluating a bond. People with basic dog handling/reading skills can probably get a pretty good read on it when watching a dog/handler together.
- should there be a different kind of bond for working and non-working dogs ? I don't know if there should be a different bond, but I think in most cases there is a stronger bond when someone 'works' with their dog. That 'work' however doesn't need to be paid employment to make the difference though. 'Work' can be sports or some other type of structured activity.

.................................................. ........

I agree with the person who posted that a dog seeking help from the handler is a indicator of bonding.

Some years back I had a good bond with a GSD. One day a little dog with razor sharp teeth sliced the skin down her side. She yelped and came to me for help. Then she laid still while I cleaned and sewed her up. Another time she got a piece of stick stuck in the roof of her mouth. She patiently waited until I figured out what was wrong then cooperated while I removed the stick.

I had a good bond with my Dobermann. He got a piece of stick stuck in his mouth just like the GSD. He sat down and stared at me as if asking for help. Once I figured it out he was cooperative just like my old GSD.

Sometimes we can probably self evaluate better than what another person might see. Currently I'm providing a home for a GSD. He's been through several homes in his short life. Casual observers may think we have a close bond but I consider it to be a superficial relationship. The trust and respect doesn't come close to what I've had with other dogs. As an example- When this dog got a stick stuck between his teeth he ran around in a mini panic and tried to find a place to hide. Once I figured out his problem, he was only semi-cooperative. I ended up extracting the stick while he growled and jerked his head around. If you only saw us training, playing or out for a walk then you'd never know the true depth (or rather lack of depth) in our bond.
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Old 05-07-2016, 05:16 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Re: dog and human bonding

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Originally Posted by rick smith View Post
re
- until it is confirmed in double blind studies it will probably remain an opinion and everyone will have one
Double blind? Exactly how would you set up such a study and to document what?
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Old 05-08-2016, 04:35 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Re: dog and human bonding

My whole training thing is based on bonding and relationship
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Old 05-09-2016, 02:20 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Re: dog and human bonding

re : "I agree with the person who posted that a dog seeking help from the handler is a indicator of bonding."
???
- which person are you referring to and what kind of bond ??
...strong or weak ??......most people who have owned dogs could list examples of both
- i stated up front i wasn't interested in debating the definitions. i was looking for how reciprocal trust and respect is expressed in common everyday training situations and dog/handler interactions

i know everyone who has ever had or ever will have a dog will have an opinion about what constitutes a strong or weak bond

i've read some pretty common sense examples and some that seemed strange to me

i tend to keep these two principles in the front of my mind when i'm training and especially when i'm evaluating a dog.
- i happen to feel that others tend to not think about it that much and look at it as more of a "by product", and maybe that's one reason why a lot of people don't feel it's a measurable relationship and more of a "know it when you see it" kinda thing
- i'm fine with that too .... just thought it was important enough to try and discuss in detail in a thread

for what it's worth, the smileys meant i don't think it will ever be studied in any scientific way and remain an opinion which i think will always be explained in as many ways as there are dog breeds
- so this thread is done for me

"dogs biting and not biting" has now become my latest topic of interest. our recent rescue project for a lot of Kumamoto dogs has brought up some interesting situations regarding this subject.
- it also seem to be a pretty common issue whether you are discussing "working" dogs or pets
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Old 05-09-2016, 07:15 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Re: dog and human bonding

in my opinion, handling of any animal will foster a bond; either good or bad

to me, handling is definitely a bond builder, but the handling itself doesn't mean whether it will build it or weaken it

this is often where the handler must show some respect to the animal as well as expecting the animal to trust and respect the handler

many examples come to mind :
- clueless vets with no bond to a visiting animal who pat it on the head...not good
- people reaching out to an animal they never met and expecting them to tolerate either petting or their hand in its face...not good
- petting a cat like you would pet a dog and vice versa...not good
- owners pinning their dog down to groom it...not good
- owners applying a death grip on a paw and trimming all claws in one forced session...not good
- dogs who chill and doze off when their owner trims its claws....good
- dogs who allow their owner to stretch open their jaws to show off their clean teeth during meet and greets....good

...the list of common stuff is endless and probably boring to most members since few specifics were posted

but my go-to and most simple measurement does not involve handling :
a dog who responds to their name when the owner calls it...GOOD
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:06 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Re: dog and human bonding

I would add consistency would be a given in all the above, good examples.

Lots of dogs may do great when THEY want to and totally ignore the handler other times.

I don't necessarily like to use stubborn, stupid, etc negatives with dog training.

It's more about the dog understanding what we want and that is....well..part of the bonding.
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