dog and human bonding - Working Dog Forum
Welcome to the Working Dog Forum.
Header



Working Dog Forum » General Conversation » General Working Dog Discussion » dog and human bonding

General Working Dog Discussion If it's about working dogs and doesn't fit in another forum, it goes in here. General questions, general discussion, etc.


Reply
tcat left
dog and human bonding
vBmenu Seperating Image LinkBack Thread Tools vBmenu Seperating Image Display Modes vBmenu Seperating Image
Old 05-02-2016, 09:03 AM   #1 (permalink)
Broke the Bark Collar
 
Status: Senior Member
Training: Other
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,011
dog and human bonding

I remember a thread last year or so regarding bonding and i’d like to revisit the topic because i feel it is very important and relevant in every aspect of dog training.

disclaimer : if you don’t feel that a bond is a mutual combination of equal doses of trust and respect, please define it your way and start another thread i would be interested in alternative definitions too

- based on my experience with over a 100 dog owners and handlers (family types and professional handlers) :

1. i have never worked with an owner or handler with a problem who did not benefit when they worked on building a better bond with their dog. it always made their training and handling better, so i never consider it irrelevant or a waste of time.
2. i also think there is a definite reason why i have NEVER been asked to help an owner with a problem who already had a strong bond with their dog.

so here’s my questions :
- how do you actually evaluate the bond when you are assessing a dog and owner/handler ?
- what types of interactions show you how their bond is ?
- what types of interactions can be used to strengthen a weak bond and make it stronger ?
- what types of interactions would be your red flags that the bond is not what it should be ?
- does the bond need to be continually reinforced over time or does it stay the same once the relationship has been established ? (for example : bonding with your pup)
- does it take a certain level of “dog/handler reading” skills to do this or should anyone be capable of evaluating the bond ? (iow, can it be self evaluated?)
- should there be a different kind of bond for working and non-working dogs ?

specifics PLEASE … specific interactions that can be measured and specific training that relates to bond building……"boots on the ground" with the dog, etc
K.I.S.S. : cut and paste Q and A's

for Lee and others :
- jokes and sarcasm are appreciated too as long as they can somehow be tied to the topic

hoping some of those who participated in the last thread will join in this one, but new members are invited too !!!!
rick smith is offline   Reply With Quote

Please Register!
Please visit our Sponsor

Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-02-2016, 12:53 PM   #2 (permalink)
Landshark
 
Status: Senior Member
Training: Search & Rescue
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Southeast Virginia
Posts: 1,756
Re: dog and human bonding

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick smith View Post
- how do you actually evaluate the bond when you are assessing a dog and owner/handler ?

** A bit like Justice Stewart wrote… “I know it when I see it”. It’s a bit hard to define for me because of the whole picture of the human action and the dog’s reciprocal action. You don’t see 2 separate things acting together, you see one thing acting separately. Like your hand being an extension of your body (if this makes any kind of sense to you)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick smith View Post
- what types of interactions show you how their bond is ?

** agility work, search work when they get to a difficult portion, when the dog is placed in a position that needs handler help to correct, how they react when help is given and do they work with the person or use it to scramble out of their predicament. For the house dogs, how do they act when their other leaves the room or when they come back. Do they want to share company or not. How does the human interact with them? Like being with the dog, share company, pet or handle the dog. How does the dog act when given a command. How does the human act when the dog does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick smith View Post
- what types of interactions can be used to strengthen a weak bond and make it stronger ?

**For me, living together. Don’t mind the occasional crate or kenneling but not for any type of long term or containment. House rules for both halves. If I step on the dog or hurt by accident, I apologize just the way a pack mate would. The same if they hurt me, pack rules all the way around. I usually care for the dogs before I care for myself. In turn they do social behaviors with me that I see them do on each other to build the social bonds among themselves. I try to give back with similar behaviors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick smith View Post
- what types of interactions would be your red flags that the bond is not what it should be ?

** if you treat the dog like a piece of furniture or react – or over react – to a situation. Corrections are too strong for the infraction or last to long. React without giving the dog time to respond. Blame the dog for something that was the owner/handler’s fault. Doesn’t accept responsibility for their actions or try to modify their behavior to get better interaction from the dog. I had a guy once who, when I told them to praise the dog, say “good dawg, Betty” is a very slow low country drawl. When I told him to act a bit excited he goes, “I am excited” in the same low slow drawl. Guy never acted happy and neither did the dog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick smith View Post
- does the bond need to be continually reinforced over time or does it stay the same once the relationship has been established ? (for example : bonding with your pup)

** like a marriage, you work at it all the time. Nothing can ever stay the same way when dealing with alive, biological material

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick smith View Post
-does it take a certain level of “dog/handler reading” skills to do this or should anyone be capable of evaluating the bond ? (iow, can it be self evaluated?)

** I think it depends on how integrated the person is with their dog. Some can take the step back and do a third person assessment, some can’t. Usually the self-absorbed or narcissistic folks are hopeless. Or those who only see what they want to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick smith View Post
- should there be a different kind of bond for working and non-working dogs?

** I think the type of bond can be different. Similar to the way a bond of soldiers in combat differs from a bond of knowing the next door neighbor. I know my neighbor but I don’t know them the way I would if we had to depend on each other in crisis or serious working situation. I don’t spend hours and hours with my neighbor. I don’t eat, sleep, live, or work with them the way I do with my dogs. I had dogs as pets growing up. Unlike those dogs, I didn’t have the level of communication I have with my SAR dogs. One of my sar dogs throws me a glance, I know what they want. Even among sar dogs, there are differing levels of bonding based on how much each gives up a part of themselves to the other.


I would like to see how you would answer your own questions. What do you see or look for?
__________________
-You can lead a human to knowledge but you can't make it think.
-Some people's minds are like concrete. All mixed up & permanently set.
-Sometimes your knight in shining armour is just a retard in tin foil.
Sarah Platts is offline   Reply With Quote

Please Register!
Old 05-02-2016, 01:52 PM   #3 (permalink)
Dominance Arising
 
Status: Member
Training: Search & Rescue
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 253
Outstanding response Sarah. You hot the nail on the head on each area, imo.

The bond between working dog handler vs pet I believe is definitely stronger.. My heart dog was a pet, although he 'worked' on the ranch and I had trained how to trail early in his life. It was the strongest bond I've ever known and people who were not dog people noticed it..

That being said, my SAR dogs are less than 2yrs of age (well one just turned 2) and their bond with me and I with them is almost at that stage my heart dog had with almost 15yrs.. They know they have a job and that job is with me and can only happen because I am with them and we work together..

I've seen other (definitely not all, but quite a few) SAR dogs that did just area or HRD. They have a good bond, but because the practice can be less and the dog is loose (this is just my guess for just these people.. Not everyone because I've seen area and HRD dog/owner bonds that are amazing! But then, they also practiced alot and really took the job seriously) and while taking direction on occasion, is mostly left to his own, maybe the bond isn't able to develop to the same state..? The need for each other's work/partnership/trust isn't there..?

I've seen police dogs climb up the leash, nail their handler purposely, run amok when able and semi do their job... A few months later, and a different handler, and you can hardly believe the difference.. Same dog? Yep, but a bond, a trust, a symmetry and poetry in the way they move and work has taken place.. Not saying a bind isn't with the other dog handler's mentioned, but it is almost superficial, if that makes sense..?

I have seen non working dogs have such deep bonds.. They are worked with, handled like a pack member, cherished but not spoiled (in the wrong way), time with handler/owner/pack member is extensive and more than just existing outside of house.. They have a job to do, even if that is just emotional companion support, although it is usually much more than that.. They hike with their pack leader, looking out for them, they protect - even of 'just' alerting on potential threats, they stay close watching, observing and interacting as needed for the benefit of the pack and their leader...

I think you can have obedience and performance without a strong bond... I've seen it.. Those truly are the dogs that can move to another household and perform the same tasks rote... But for the truly bonded, that same dog is disoriented without its pack, it knows it's job but its place is with the pack it loves and whose loyalty it has pledged.. It does not work well for others, perhaps obeys, but the spark of life that makes the pack leaders handling dynamic and fluid, is missing.. It is more than just familiarity with routine and prior.. The dog exists for their person.. And usually the same is true for the person for the dog...
Misty Wegner is offline   Reply With Quote

Please Register!
Old 05-03-2016, 08:42 AM   #4 (permalink)
Landshark
 
Status: Senior Member
Training: Search & Rescue
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Southeast Virginia
Posts: 1,756
Re: dog and human bonding

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick smith View Post
- based on my experience with over a 100 dog owners and handlers (family types and professional handlers) :

1. i have never worked with an owner or handler with a problem who did not benefit when they worked on building a better bond with their dog. it always made their training and handling better, so i never consider it irrelevant or a waste of time.
2. i also think there is a definite reason why i have NEVER been asked to help an owner with a problem who already had a strong bond with their dog.

so here’s my questions :
- how do you actually evaluate the bond when you are assessing a dog and owner/handler ?
- what types of interactions show you how their bond is ?
- what types of interactions can be used to strengthen a weak bond and make it stronger ?
- what types of interactions would be your red flags that the bond is not what it should be ?
- does the bond need to be continually reinforced over time or does it stay the same once the relationship has been established ? (for example : bonding with your pup)
- does it take a certain level of “dog/handler reading” skills to do this or should anyone be capable of evaluating the bond ? (iow, can it be self evaluated?)
- should there be a different kind of bond for working and non-working dogs ?

specifics PLEASE … specific interactions that can be measured and specific training that relates to bond building……"boots on the ground" with the dog, etc
K.I.S.S. : cut and paste Q and A's
Rick,

I would be interested in your thoughts and feelings on the same questions you posted above. Based on the number of folks who have come to you for help surely you have seen much of the above and have some definite opinions to share that would offer some insights for the rest of us. How about sharing?
__________________
-You can lead a human to knowledge but you can't make it think.
-Some people's minds are like concrete. All mixed up & permanently set.
-Sometimes your knight in shining armour is just a retard in tin foil.
Sarah Platts is offline   Reply With Quote

Please Register!
Old 05-03-2016, 08:56 AM   #5 (permalink)
Broke the Bark Collar
 
Status: Senior Member
Training: Other
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,011
Re: dog and human bonding

Sarah
i have a LOT of specific things i look for when evaluating a bond

i started the thread because i think it is important and often is the core reason for many problems

so i hope it gets a wide variety of answers from both experienced members and new members
- so far, not so many, but i can be patient
- tx for giving it some thought... i agree with a lot of what you wrote

for me, the most relevance is when i am evaluating a dog for training
since EVERY dog owner thinks they already have a great bond with their dog //lol//

i truly believe it can be evaluated and measured in many ways and is not just something that you "know what it is when you see it" per the Justice Stewart analogy
- the simplest example i can think of is a food aggressive dog, and that is a common behavior problem
- another specific example is the dog who is quick to bite their handler when corrected
....for me, both are clear examples of an unbalanced bond regardless of the other reasons that may appear to be more obvious

but at this point, if i posted another long thread with my inputs, all it would do is get different opinions on what i wrote, and i am looking for specific answers of how others look at this issue, not starting a back and forth

kind of like Leslie said ...anyone can say "build up prey drive and go tug with your dog"
- for me the devil is always in the details

everyone has a bond with their dog, but it varies WIDELY !!
rick smith is offline   Reply With Quote

Please Register!
Old 05-03-2016, 10:35 AM   #6 (permalink)
Dominance Arising
 
Status: Member
Training: Search & Rescue
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 253
While I have owned many dogs and have worked with other people's dogs, I don't feel this is my specialty.. At least in a broad scope (obedience, IPO, aggression problems, etc). What I can tell you I see in my relationship with my dogs, and what I look for in others (especially those who shove advice down your throat but don't have even a measure of what I consider needed for a good bond with their dog)...

-A dog who obeys his owner, but not just rote or begrudgingly - looking for a distraction.. But obeys because it is teamwork, respect for the leader of the team. Looking for ways to please his owner/partner.. (owner doesn't overdo repetitive tasks to the dogs boredom, especially ones that are so mentally draining dog starts to resent task)

-If a food or object the dog wants is requested, he yields it without aggression or a sour attitude..

-If a correction is made it is noted and learned from. No retaliation. No cowarding or shirking the responsibility the dog has due to the correction.. (owner does not overcorrect and looks for the try and positives in the dog..)

-The dogs desire is to be with their owner, to work with their owner. They are self confident and can be by themselves for a time, but they live for the moment they are with their pack and able to be if service.. (same for owner)

-The dog trusts his owner in new situations, and will yield to his owners directions despite its own reservations (the owner never puts dog in scenarios that will overload and sabotage it's confidence or hurt it knowingly, and understands and sees the effort and try in the dog and accepts it)

-Even in play their is a connection with dog and handler, respect, joy, in short communication is constant and clear..

-owner can handle every part of dog without aggression or resistance (ticklishness is ok but dog still does not bolt or evade handling (I. E. Hairs in between toes))

There is more but I have to go, time got away from me haha...
Misty Wegner is offline   Reply With Quote

Please Register!
Old 05-03-2016, 11:34 AM   #7 (permalink)
Broke the Bark Collar
 
Status: Senior Member
Training: Other
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,011
Re: dog and human bonding

Misty
please reread my original post. i took time to consider the format to use and there was a reason i asked specific questions

glad you responded; but please try and cut/paste and fit your responses to the specific questions the same way Sarah did
rick smith is offline   Reply With Quote

Please Register!
Old 05-03-2016, 12:59 PM   #8 (permalink)
Dominance Arising
 
Status: Member
Training: Search & Rescue
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 253
My apologies Rick, I do 99% of everything off my phone and do not know how to cut and paste (as was stated in the post) this way. I will refrain from responding further
Misty Wegner is offline   Reply With Quote

Please Register!
Old 05-03-2016, 01:52 PM   #9 (permalink)
Broke the Bark Collar
 
Status: Senior Member
Training: Other
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,011
Re: dog and human bonding

this is not getting many responses

so Lee :

was there any change in mutual trust or respect after you chopped off your dog's balls ????
rick smith is offline   Reply With Quote

Please Register!
Old 05-03-2016, 01:53 PM   #10 (permalink)
Broke the Bark Collar
 
Howard Knauf's Avatar
 
Status: Super Moderator
Training: Police K9
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Melbourne, Florida
Posts: 3,302
Re: dog and human bonding

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick smith View Post
- how do you actually evaluate the bond when you are assessing a dog and owner/handler ?
I watch every move the dog makes in relation to every move the owner makes in whatever situation they are in.

Quote:
- what types of interactions show you how their bond is ?
Depending on the above. I looked at the dogs' reactions to the human action.


Quote:
- what types of interactions can be used to strengthen a weak bond and make it stronger ?
I like traveling, working or hunting with my dogs as a team effort. I incorporate my PSD as a "hunting team" with myself and other officers just as a dog would in a wild pack. Capturing, take downs, and ultimately subduing the bad guy as "prey" builds a nice pack structure with humans in the dogs' mind which in turn prevents accidental bites on officers if we have to all go hands on with the bad guy.


Quote:
- what types of interactions would be your red flags that the bond is not what it should be ?
Resource guarding, dominant in any form or fashion, or disobedience are all red flags.


Quote:
- does the bond need to be continually reinforced over time or does it stay the same once the relationship has been established ? (for example : bonding with your pup)
IMO I don't think it is a concience effort. It should come naturally, fairly, fluid and cohesive.


Quote:
- does it take a certain level of “dog/handler reading” skills to do this or should anyone be capable of evaluating the bond ? (iow, can it be self evaluated?)
Yes. ad yes.


Quote:
- should there be a different kind of bond for working and non-working dogs ?
IMO, yes. In my case the seriousness of the work demands utmost trust and control. When a working dog is in drive he has to trust you even when you command him to do something contrary to instinct.
__________________
https://spacecoasttactical.com
Howard Knauf is offline   Reply With Quote

Please Register!
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:07 AM.


 

SEO by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC5