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12 week old Mal nervousness stomach
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:18 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Re: 12 week old Mal nervousness stomach

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Scott View Post
I'll ditto Joby on this!
As would I, adding something else that if you read between the lines I know you both probably would agree with.

If you can work around the nervous temperament/defects in such a dog, great. However, having seen how stressed these "saved" animals are throughout their lives, I do think there is a more humane way of dealing with that situation. If you have to ask what I mean, you wouldn't understand the answer. Even if one does understand but disagrees, I respect that.

I may be in the minority concerning that perspective but the advice of returning an unfit dog/pup to a breeder just compounds the issue and IMO contributes to the "problem". Someone inevitably is going to have to deal with the situation. Unfortunately, some do not handle fearful dogs well and take their hobbled emotional intelligence and training failures out on the dog when things go poorly.
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Old 03-16-2016, 11:30 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Re: 12 week old Mal nervousness stomach

I agree and yes, I do avoid training fearful dogs.

For one think I don't have any desire to and for another reason I think a simple case of nerves can possibly be worked with but I think a truly fearful dog will probably spends it's lifetime in constant stress and I wouldn't do that to a dog.
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Old 03-17-2016, 12:32 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Re: 12 week old Mal nervousness stomach

fearful dogs are very common problems in the pet world where people have not researched breeders and bloodlines and therefore get dogs with problems.
- or they rescue as is....

my preference would line up with Joby and Bob
but with that said ...

if an owner wants to help their nervous dog and go to a trainer it is the trainers responsibility to try and help them as best they can
i have experienced a LOT and have found things to do that helps the problem
- i have NEVER seen a nervy dog that couldn't be helped. some more than others, but without help they go NOWHERE. ALL dogs adapt; that's what makes them great no matter how bad a problem they have
- experience teaches you things that work and things that don't
- not blowing my own horn Nicole...i have no horn to blow

i always take the approach we are here to help people rather than discourage them by saying what we wouldn't choose to do
- i see dogs all the time that really don't match up with their owners, but i gave up telling them that a long time ago ...it's counterproductive and you are beating a dead horse. i show them small things that will help that they never considered. some get motivated and others don't

if the OP comes back and wants specifics i'd be glad to post more

"socialize the heck out of em" teaches NOTHING even tho it is the first thing mentioned when talking about building confidence, or reducing reactivity and/or fear
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Old 03-17-2016, 03:50 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Re: 12 week old Mal nervousness stomach

As a owner of just such a dog, that was a rescue.
In your average pet home, this dog is likely to continue to experience high stress.
My head agrees that it should be returned to breeder, put to sleep.
My emotions led me in another direction. And did just what you recommend: got me a trainer, and learnt lots fast. It worked for us. It was a huge commitment. I doubt most others would of been prepared to put the time and energy into such a dog. But who's to say the OP is not like this?

These dogs are the long haul. And i wish her luck, as i think its going to be needed.

I totally get why as professionals, you would of run a mile, if id turned up to you asking for help with this dog, but im glad the one i found did not. The dog and i shared a very close bond. His trust, in spite of his fear.terror, was humbling.

If my pup turns up and is nervous pup, of course i should return it. But not sure i could.
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Old 03-17-2016, 06:36 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Re: 12 week old Mal nervousness stomach

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Originally Posted by Nicole Stark View Post
I may be in the minority concerning that perspective but the advice of returning an unfit dog/pup to a breeder just compounds the issue and IMO contributes to the "problem". Someone inevitably is going to have to deal with the situation. Unfortunately, some do not handle fearful dogs well and take their hobbled emotional intelligence and training failures out on the dog when things go poorly.
I do agree with this, and kinda said it an even more round about way..that was understated I am sure...

I think a lot of people dont want to eat the cost of the dog if a breeder will take it back and refund or exchange or whatever if there are choices of other pups from other dogs.

the problem comes in when the breeder would try to re-sell that dog or just give it away..

I personally would put down dogs returned to me with this type of problem, and would put them down if they were ones I had if the breeders would not take them back..

that is the part some people don't get, if you bred the litter you take the responsibility for it, and that does not always mean finding them good homes, or even finding them any homes sometimes...and it also means that you should take them off the planet if you put them there and they have major problems.

that was the unsaid part I left out, due to the recent trend of not being able to say you're an animal or even a dog lover because you dont think every dog should be saved at whatever cost...

I think I love dogs, but I sure have put quite a few down in my life, and not due to old age... this is a current argument I am having with someone close to me who likes to tell me I don't love dogs, I think its maybe because I am not IN LOVE with them...which I guess is the new trend as well...

well said Nicole
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:44 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Re: 12 week old Mal nervousness stomach

further off topic as usual, but i'll go with the flow and toss in my .05 //LOL//

i have not personally killed dogs myself, but i have recommended to owners that their dog be killed. besides Joby, who on this forum has pulled the trigger ?

reality check :
- in our "modern world" culling and killing dogs that are judged by someone, or some court, to be unfit to live around humans has been relegated to vets, and there are fewer who will do it. i think they conveniently like to leave that to kill shelters, which have also been in the decline. but i would guess that is where most dogs get killed.
- it's also much easier(and maybe culturally acceptable?) to do this in a farm setting rather than in an urban environment
- actually a lot of our members have had their dogs killed, but probably have used more kinder gentler terms like "let it go", "put it down", or PTS, etc etc. it doesn't change the reality. you killed your dog. but you probably loved your dog as much as i do, so that makes you a dog lover in my opinion.....so PLEASE don't talk out of both sides of your mouth

obviously i don't think the decision of whether to kill or not should be compared to how much someone loves dogs. i also think the portion of dogs who are a danger to people and need to be killed is a VERY small percentage of 'nervous dogs'.......which i thought this thread was about.....not whether to cull or not

i'm a DOG LOVER. with that said, years ago i made a decision that if i couldn't be able to care for my dog it would have been killed rather than passed on to someone else. my wife also agreed since she also agreed she would not be able to care for it by herself. that decision stood for about seven years. we even found a vet who agreed with our decision.
fast forward---- i have since found someone who wanted to keep my dog after i was gone and they started working him almost daily. they worked their ass off !! they gained my complete trust and i have since changed that decision....all is good....the person also happens to be a female //LOL//

back to the point
you can return a dog and hope the breeder is responsible, but maybe if they were, they wouldn't have sold or given the dog to someone in the first place ??
- sorry ---- it happens, and most dogs that i have come across that are nervous, or lacking in confidence or trust in their owner, even if they have bitten a few people in the process, do NOT need to be killed. for me, to consider that as an option for these kind of dogs is being a quitter.
- sure, you can refuse or just "decline" to work with a nerve bag, reactive dog. that's your choice. maybe you just don't have the time or motivation. reality and life takes over. i get it
- but if you are a trainer, you should do your job as best you can but not lose sight of reality

- that's how i see the world, and i realise most of our members are owners and not trainers

still think the thread would be more productive if the OP came back and made it interactive rather than wander off into other areas that won't have any effect on the way people train their dogs
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Old 03-18-2016, 01:41 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Re: 12 week old Mal nervousness stomach

Are you asking who has put a gun to a dogs head and pulled the trigger or are you asking who has made the decision to release an unfit dog?

All of our threads eventually flow off topic, particularly when the OP doesn't stay vested in the thread. Who cares? Alright, I know you do but I don't really know why it seems to bother you as it does. When a conversation has run it's course it's pretty common for people to naturally change the subject or take it down a different path. Some just stop communicating altogether for reasons only they know.

Why would this mode of communication be any different? Ever try to hold a proper conversation with someone via text? That is, without question, one of the most useless forms of communication ever invented. Grunting and pointing is probably more effective, maybe even an occasional moon or tit flashing to keep things interesting. But then again, aside from emergencies I see cell phones as useless garbage and brain/social drains.

To be clear. My comments were not directed at the OP or her situation with this puppy. They were directed exactly as stated, in response to Joby and Bob's comments. Off topic? Depends who you ask, the topic was nervousness stomach. It's all relative.

I also made no statements/judgments about what degree of fearfulness or defective nerve issues might qualify a dog for release. That is not for me to put out there for discussion especially not on this forum. It's no one's business but my own and possibly any breeder associated with the situation. I do not need to have my standards approved by others in order to justify what it is I deem to be acceptable or necessary. Working with the dog to the extent necessary before such a decision is made, surely was a given.

Getting this back on track, the OP seems to have a sense about what she is dealing with and is willing to hang on for the long haul. That's cool and I hope she comes back and shares updates as time goes on.
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Last edited by Nicole Stark; 03-18-2016 at 01:49 AM..
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