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Herding + PP training
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Old 06-08-2016, 03:58 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Patronus View Post
It is Ulf. In one of his videos, he made a point of saying that "herding" drive is different from a "prey" drive. But I suppose he has a point in that having too much "prey" drive can be just as bad as having too little, so in that sense, herding is purely about having a dog with the highest amount of "prey" drive.

HGH does seem to be a bit less prevalent over here in the States, which is why I am interested in his training.
Yes I am/was very interested in HGH training I did try the regular training of the 'sheepdog' style of training that border collies and movies like 'Babe' the pig made popular. It was fun but pretty difficult to get the same performance and results as a border collie, basically that is a sport dominated by border collies. As there is a huge bias in the community in what they would consider 'off' breeds so you are behind the 8 ball from the get go. As Malinois and GSDs etc were genetically not selected to herd like a border collie. That being said they go about that job in a different way. It isn't wrong, just different. So you will have to train mentally differently than a border collie if you want to compete against border collies in their sport.

If you want to train your dog to work sheep in whatever venue HGH AKC you need to understand it is a long term project so you will need to put away any desire for instant gratification and/or quick results. It's a romantic notion to herd sheep with a herding dog, but the reality of the commitment and time you will have to invest to get results will be daunting.

As for what Ulf was saying he is correct .. your statement of.
Quote:
It is Ulf. In one of his videos, he made a point of saying that "herding" drive is different from a "prey" drive. But I suppose he has a point in that having too much "prey" drive can be just as bad as having too little, so in that sense, herding is purely about having a dog with the highest amount of "prey" drive.
Having a 'high' "prey" drive is not necessarily a good thing. Having mental clarity, control and tapping into 'prey' in a way like a an old style IPO Schutzhund dog ebbs and flows in and out of defense, is sort of how 'prey' works in herding. So in my opinion having only a 'high' prey drive isn't what makes a dog that can work sheep. Having untapped high prey while herding is always a disaster. Be careful for what you wish for as you may just get it.
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Old 06-08-2016, 06:56 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

Re: BC herding I look at it like this but could be wrong for sure.

Prey sequence= stalk/eye- chase- catch- kill/disect

Herding is this sequence truncated to:

Stalk/eye- chase- stalk/eye-chase- stalk/eye- etc
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Old 06-09-2016, 12:01 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

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Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Re: BC herding I look at it like this but could be wrong for sure.

Prey sequence= stalk/eye- chase- catch- kill/disect

Herding is this sequence truncated to:

Stalk/eye- chase- stalk/eye-chase- stalk/eye- etc

That would be closer then just high prey for sure.

Is that from DOGS by Raymond and Lorna Copinger?


There are a lot of "herding" dogs out there with over the top prey.

I've seen a number of then controlled with e-collars.

That may work but I'd rather work with a natural dog.

My SCH III had a natural gather from the very first time we walked on a sheep field.

Driving the stock away from me was where the work came in and that came from lots of "go by" and "Away to me" work.

He had excellent prey yet was VERY clear headed from the time I got him at 6 wks old.

He was probably 5yrs old before he ever saw stock of any sort.
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Old 06-09-2016, 02:17 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

I'm not sure Bob it is what I figured out in my head watching Sali compared to Indie with Sali's sequence being complete and Indies truncated. Whether this is out of choice on the dogs part or a bred in factor i have no idea though.
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Old 06-09-2016, 06:45 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

The old fella that I go herding with says he likes a dog that wants to kill the sheep/cows/pigs (his dogs do the lot, BC's) bare in mind he has no formal concept of "drive" and looks like I am talking martian if I mention stuff like that, he's learned to train the dogs organically in his occupation as a farmer.
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Old 06-09-2016, 11:46 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Empey View Post
As for what Ulf was saying he is correct .. your statement of.

Having a 'high' "prey" drive is not necessarily a good thing. Having mental clarity, control and tapping into 'prey' in a way like a an old style IPO Schutzhund dog ebbs and flows in and out of defense, is sort of how 'prey' works in herding. So in my opinion having only a 'high' prey drive isn't what makes a dog that can work sheep. Having untapped high prey while herding is always a disaster. Be careful for what you wish for as you may just get it.
Sorry. Typo on my part, I meant to say that herding isn't purely about having a dog with the highest prey drive.
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Old 06-10-2016, 12:43 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

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Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
I'm not sure Bob it is what I figured out in my head watching Sali compared to Indie with Sali's sequence being complete and Indies truncated. Whether this is out of choice on the dogs part or a bred in factor i have no idea though.

The book is a good read!
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Old 06-13-2016, 08:28 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

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Originally Posted by Fred Patronus View Post
Sorry. Typo on my part, I meant to say that herding isn't purely about having a dog with the highest prey drive.
No but it needs to be there and workable. As Matt and I said earlier in the thread, herding is a modified or tempered prey response.

Both my dogs are over the top with prey drive. It was more about training and using the genetics that came with the dog. An old master trainer once told me "it is easier to temper a hot flame than to try to start a fire" basically it is the same thing with prey drive.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:59 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

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Originally Posted by Geoff Empey View Post
No but it needs to be there and workable. As Matt and I said earlier in the thread, herding is a modified or tempered prey response.
I agree.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:45 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

Just as most all "trained' behaviors having a genetic link to the wild canines.

Having done scentwork, herding and retrieving are ones that stand out for me as something many dogs have naturally and we just redirected it to serve us.
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