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Herding + PP training
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Old 06-06-2016, 11:09 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Herding + PP training

I have a young GSD male. I rescued him so I have very little info about his background and breeding (no AKC papers, no that I really care about that sort of thing).

Despite all the uncertainty, he seems to have a very traditional GSD temperament: very aloof and confident in public and on walks; very alert and on guard around the house (he will challenge a total stranger coming onto the property); somewhat decent prey drive (he chased wildlife before I trained a good recall and loves chasing any toys that I throw); and always eager to work or do something with me.

I am in the early stages of starting up formal IPO training (tracking, protection work). I was wondering if it would be okay or counter-productive to also start him on herding-type training.

As I understand it, the herding-type dogs work and behave the way they do because of their prey drive...the big caveat of course is that the herder teaches them to hold off on hurting/killing the livestock for obvious reasons.

Would this type of training interfere with his protection and bite work? Or will the two activities reinforce and build upon one another?
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Old 06-06-2016, 12:26 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

Hi Fred. Please post an intro per the forum rules.

We have some herding folks on this board who may give some insight into your query.

Howard
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Old 06-06-2016, 12:53 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Knauf View Post
Hi Fred. Please post an intro per the forum rules.

We have some herding folks on this board who may give some insight into your query.

Howard
Where do I post an intro?
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Old 06-06-2016, 02:04 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

I have a little experience of both, I have Mali's I train in IPO/Ring exercises and also herding one does better at herding than the other and IMO is better suited for IPO the other does better with ring exercises. Personally I feel a strong herding dog does well in learning/performing IPO exercises after all schutzhund was designed as a replacement for herding was it not?
Once I started herding I actually realized how Schutzhund and to an extent IPO is actually a good substitute IMO.

However I am no expert and there are people on here who do both I beleive alsthough I havn't seen them post in ages.
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Old 06-06-2016, 07:31 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

You can do both, and the dog will be able to easily transition between the two...provided the proper genetics are there to begin with.
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Old 06-07-2016, 08:42 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

Thanks for the feedback!

I actually looked into a trainer who specializes in GSD herding trials (HGH or something like that).

Reading up on his website and watching some videos he posted online, he categorizes the instinct to herd as something separate from a dog's prey drive. I had thought that the two were one in the same. Are they different, or is this a simple disagreement over semantics?
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Old 06-07-2016, 02:34 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Patronus View Post
Thanks for the feedback!

I actually looked into a trainer who specializes in GSD herding trials (HGH or something like that).

Reading up on his website and watching some videos he posted online, he categorizes the instinct to herd as something separate from a dog's prey drive. I had thought that the two were one in the same. Are they different, or is this a simple disagreement over semantics?
Herding is a truncated prey sequence.
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Old 06-07-2016, 10:57 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

I did AKC herding with my SchIII.

No problems whatsoever.

The HGH style herding is not very common here in the USA.

It's what the GSD was originally bred for and requires quite a large flock as opposed to the normal 6-8 ducks, sheep, cattle seen at the AKC trials.

MUCH more common is the Border Collie type herding.

That's what I did with my GSD and we both loved doing it but, given the chance I would have loved doing the HGH style.

Different requirements all around.
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Old 06-08-2016, 08:12 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Patronus View Post
Thanks for the feedback!

I actually looked into a trainer who specializes in GSD herding trials (HGH or something like that).

Reading up on his website and watching some videos he posted online, he categorizes the instinct to herd as something separate from a dog's prey drive. I had thought that the two were one in the same. Are they different, or is this a simple disagreement over semantics?
Herding is a modified prey response. Basically dogs who are good at herding it is more of a genetically modified and/or trained softened prey. I've seen dogs where the prey drive is through the roof 'kill' sheep at the worst or overly worry the sheep.

The HGH is less about gathering small amounts of sheep anyways and more about tending which is more sheep. As with some dogs the gathering can incite high amounts of prey in a 'green' dog.

It wasn't Ulf Kintzel who you were checking out? As there isn't a lot who specialize in HGH. I had looked into training with him as well at one point, but have been just to busy with Ringsport to continue herding training. If I owed a farm it is something I do want to get a better handle on but at this point it wasn't worth it to continue.
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Old 06-08-2016, 12:27 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Herding + PP training

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Empey View Post
Herding is a modified prey response. Basically dogs who are good at herding it is more of a genetically modified and/or trained softened prey. I've seen dogs where the prey drive is through the roof 'kill' sheep at the worst or overly worry the sheep.

The HGH is less about gathering small amounts of sheep anyways and more about tending which is more sheep. As with some dogs the gathering can incite high amounts of prey in a 'green' dog.

It wasn't Ulf Kintzel who you were checking out? As there isn't a lot who specialize in HGH. I had looked into training with him as well at one point, but have been just to busy with Ringsport to continue herding training. If I owed a farm it is something I do want to get a better handle on but at this point it wasn't worth it to continue.

It is Ulf. In one of his videos, he made a point of saying that "herding" drive is different from a "prey" drive. But I suppose he has a point in that having too much "prey" drive can be just as bad as having too little, so in that sense, herding is purely about having a dog with the highest amount of "prey" drive.

HGH does seem to be a bit less prevalent over here in the States, which is why I am interested in his training.
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