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PSD's tracking for the ball.
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Old 02-10-2015, 11:18 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Re: PSD's tracking for the ball.

I also believe that with some dogs, I would think Bloodhounds, would self reward in the tracking itself.

The reward is adjusted to whatever the dog is used for.

Obviously a general statement because there are always exceptions..
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Old 02-13-2015, 02:57 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: PSD's tracking for the ball.

I do train PSD Mals and Dutchies as well as Bloodhounds. I never have the need for a ball with a bloodhound. We pay them with love at the end of a track. Lots of slobber and lots of love. They work for the track and the love just fine. With Mals and Dutchies, a ball or tug is used often to start but not always. I like to use whatever method that works the best for that dog. But with Mals and Dutchies, a ball or tug is a calmer "pay check" at the end of a track than tracking through drive and a bite. I want them to focus on tracking. I guess its the "one thing at a time, slow and solid foundation" mentality. But I will switch to tracking through drive if need be. I have a way I prefer but I like to have other ways to fall back on if one way just isn't working out quite like I want. I want to start the dog slow and steady with its nose to the ground, not excited with its head popping up looking or air scenting excited for the bite. I feel that a run off and bite has them seeming to be tracking too fast in the beginning and seems to me that they are only half tracking to start. Not that I am saying this is wrong, just not how I prefer to start. But for a dog that just isnt quite getting it, this is a good go to method for me. I just think it is about pesonal prefernce. For me I just like to slow it down and really work on the foundation of nose to the ground and I feel this is easier with the dog in a less excited state.
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Old 02-13-2015, 05:50 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Re: PSD's tracking for the ball.

TX Chad....
Q's :

... i don't work with PSD's but am assuming this is tracking a suspect that needs to be apprehended and not SAR related track...

i'm also assuming BH's are used to search/find and not to apprehend by engaging ...

could this be one reason why BH's have become "scent driven" and have not developed a genetic need for reward bites as compared to mals/gsds and other similar herding breeds used in PSD tracking ?
- after all, a ball or a tug is something the K9 can "get its teeth on" when it is being rewarded with that toy

* what your example also points out (once again) is the "power of love" that is often overlooked when a grip toy is also in the toolbox

.... getting all gushy and lovey dovey since it will be valentines day soon...over here, the girls give the guys chocolate on VD. put that in your hat, Lee //lol//
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Old 02-13-2015, 12:34 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Re: PSD's tracking for the ball.

another Q Chad .....
do you train puppies as well as green dogs ?

if you get a young green dog i would expect it would have already had some imprinting and foundation work which could affect the selection of an appropriate reward that would fit the individual K9
yes / no ?
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Old 02-13-2015, 12:58 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Re: PSD's tracking for the ball.

I found both my GSDs tracked for the love of tracking. The Fila Brasileiro was also a passionate tracker.
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Old 02-14-2015, 01:56 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Re: PSD's tracking for the ball.

interesting thread .. wish it was more two way

anyway
thread is about PSD tracking, correct ?
thread is about relevance of various rewards to use for various breeds, correct ?
Phil saw all mals but doesn't train mals .. only gsd's .. off lead

assumptions (since my Q's weren't answered)
- all PSD K9's have to learn to follow the scent of a human
- all PSD K9's have to learn the human at the end may be a criminal that will resist
- since BH"s generally don't fight, PSD BH needs to be backed up with apprehensive force immediately; other patrol breeds need to bring on the fight themselves so bite work is incorporated in the reward process

- to put it another way, the PSD (mal, gsd, BH or whatever) will never work alone, and the BH will rarely if ever be required to engage....all other breeds normally used (i.e. dual purpose) are expected to engage and fight unless told otherwise, correct ?

more assumptions ;
- you train for the real world. that should always be the big picture and the end goal. if you choose to use balls with no bites, the longer that process might take and PSD training usually has time constraints
- for any breed, the sooner the K9 realises the track is to find a bad guy the sooner you can use the dog in the real world.
- imo frantic dog work can be the result of a frantic trainer just as much as the result of a frantic dog. i've seen it first hand
- a green dog brings some level of foundation training into the picture. only a puppy is a blank page and no one has talked about imprinting/foundation work for a PSD puppy

- so by my dumb logic, if you are training a PSD, you should only use toys to train basic beginning levels of scent discrimination, if ever at all. you need the human at the end and they should never act like helpless lost victims
- it would also seem pointless to use the handler's scent in this process since the PSD's job is not to track/find its handler
- i also think handler praise can be combined with a reward bite

also curious about Phils breed bias since there are obviously plenty of mals and dutchies doing credible PSD work all over the world and these breeds seem to be on the increase. 38 years is a heckofa lot of experience, but PSD training has changed a lot over the last 38 years, and some of it has been for the better ... imo of course
- whether the dogs are getting better or worse, breed wise, is a whole other topic
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Old 02-14-2015, 07:30 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Re: PSD's tracking for the ball.

Rick,
From my personal experience here in Canada from the dogs I handled and seen other forces use.Most use play for tracking motivation few will use bite at end only.Some dogs may need it but most I have seen didn't.I would look closely at a dog who would only respond well to traing with bites and nothing else,unless you only need a dog that tracks to bite and does nothing else,I am not sure the training of such dog for other detection phases and types of work would be as easy.JMO
My two dogs were introduced to bites at the end on tracks as a second excercise.By this I mean that only one command to track,they track and upon reaching the end of the track if we decided it was to be a bite,just before we reached the end the decoy popped out and did the agitation,I called out and then sent dog.So,the dog only got bite occasionaly and we didn't work to have them associate tracking with bite.In the tracking the dogs needed to concentrate on tracking,if they are any good they will respond to the fight!
But this is just my opinion,and we did most of our tracking on line,exceptions would be because of difficult terrain.Dogs were all GSD,dual purpose.
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Old 02-14-2015, 08:02 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Re: PSD's tracking for the ball.

interesting comments Mike
Tx for posting

re: the dual purpose status
was tracking taught concurrently with detection training ?

can i assume the track was not laid with any decoy scent or decoy "articles" when there was a bite given at the end ?

on lead to minimize handler/K9 separation ?
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Old 02-14-2015, 09:37 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Re: PSD's tracking for the ball.

Rick,
The tracking ,article search,ob,bite work were taught in first part of training and the detection,either drugs or explo. were taught after.Total time training usually 4 months full time.Could be extended 1-2 weeks if needed ie:injury to handler or snafu along the way.
NOt sure what you mean by no decoy scent,but the tracklayer would lay the track let it age the reposition WITH protection (sleeve or suite) trrack was run and final as I explained before.
On lead,easier to read dog,and yes minimize seperation.
Hope this helps explain
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Old 02-15-2015, 12:00 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Re: PSD's tracking for the ball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gillian Schuler View Post
I found both my GSDs tracked for the love of tracking. The Fila Brasileiro was also a passionate tracker.



My now 11 yr old GSD I selected for SAR.

He was finding me in the woods with a 5-10 min start when he was 12 wks old.

My now 8 yr old GSD can sport track but without proper motivation (food or toy) he'd rather look at what's over the horizon.

I do believe with some dogs tracking/trailing/whatever can be very self rewarding. That's what keeps a good dog going and not so much a reward at the end of a track.

I don't really know that a dog that doesn't have that desire/drive can be trained to stick with a track for 30-40 or more mins without finding a reward of some sort.

Just a thought!
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