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Give me some history!
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:26 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Give me some history!


My understanding is that many of these dog sports are descendants of protection dog training? What is the purpose of wanting a dog to never let go of the bite? When I watch these dogs in ring sports or SCH videos many times the decoy has some form of an agitation stick. First the dog bites the arm without the stick; I think this is stupid in itself. Then the decoy waves the stick around and taps and pokes the dogs with it. My understanding is that this is to try to get the dog to release the bite. How and why did this become the standard?
Is there a reason the sport did not evolve so the dog is trained to bite the arm with a weapon or release and retarget when he sees a weapon being raised in the other hand? Or bite the leg that is kicking him?
Basically what is the point of this bite and hold with a calm full grip thing all about?
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:32 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Give me some history!

Troublemaker!!

I gave up pondering things like that.

I assume it's because a dog that turns the person being bitten into hamburger is a liability?
4 nice neat holes should be enough to bring someone down I guess.
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Old 04-06-2009, 01:34 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Give me some history!

Hitting the dog demonstrates that the dog isn't a wus. It can send some dogs flying, not the kind of dog you would want watching your back I should think.
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Old 04-06-2009, 02:21 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Give me some history!

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Originally Posted by Tammy Cohen View Post
Troublemaker!!

I gave up pondering things like that.

I assume it's because a dog that turns the person being bitten into hamburger is a liability?
4 nice neat holes should be enough to bring someone down I guess.

Its going to be a while before I give up pondering, I really want a legit answer. I donít think they had liability issues when most of these sports started. What about those PP clubs and trials do they want to hang on and get beat to death there? What about real war dogs of the past where they trained to just hang on. Is there some trial or sport where the dog is supposed to coconsciously fight in and out?
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Old 04-06-2009, 02:41 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Give me some history!

I'm not sure were you got the idea that the dog never let's go, I find this a misconception. In SchH the dog has to out within three commands or it's DQ'ed.
A calm and strong bite from what I understand shows a dog has good nerves and a commitment of the bite. Were a dog that chews or has a weak 1/2 grip are conflicted on whether to flight or fight. Many dogs will not engauge or disengauge when confronted with the stick, thus the nerve of the dog is flight when confronted with a strong deterent. I could be wrong though.
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Old 04-06-2009, 03:44 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Give me some history!

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I'm not sure were you got the idea that the dog never let's go, I find this a misconception. In SchH the dog has to out within three commands or it's DQ'ed.
A calm and strong bite from what I understand shows a dog has good nerves and a commitment of the bite. Were a dog that chews or has a weak 1/2 grip are conflicted on whether to flight or fight. Many dogs will not engauge or disengauge when confronted with the stick, thus the nerve of the dog is flight when confronted with a strong deterent. I could be wrong though.
Iím not referring to when they are told to ďoutĒ I am referring to release and re-targeting at their own will

A dog that can be trained to release and re-target the arm or leg being used to hurt him has weak nerves?

I understand that the stick is there to run off some dogs, but why not have the dogs with the nerves attack the arm with the stick? Even if they have to reposition themselves for a better angle of attack?
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Old 04-06-2009, 04:40 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Give me some history!

Some dogs will not stick a bite under the pressure of the stick, but instead let go, retarget, etc because of poor nerves. A dog that will bite and hold can be taught to retarget like you are describing, but a dog who won't maintain a grip under pressure because of nerve issues usually can't be taught to bite and hold. This is true not just in manwork but can also be seen in catch work and herding. Some dogs nip because that's all they have the guts to do, get in there, take a quick shot, and get the heck out. Others nip when that's all that's needed, but will bite and hold when needed also. Sometimes when not needed to

These are sports, meant to test the dogs, but none of them claim they produce a street ready dog. In terms of testing, if the sport were to encourage dogs who let go, retarget, won't take frontal pressure but circle to the back, etc how do you differentiate in trial between the dogs who are doing it because they don't have the nerve to take the pressure and hang in there, vs the dogs who do have the nerve but were trained to fight this way?

If you look at some of the REALLY old competition videos, I think mainly Sch ones are on YouTube you will see some dogs that let go and retarget. At the time I think that was probably acceptable, but as people learned more about the dogs, how to test them, etc they moved more towards requirements they felt better showed the dogs nerves, with the idea that the dogs can always be trained to work a different way, if desired.

I also would not be surprised if politics came into play, as more dogs were used for police work, and we moved towards a "kinder and gentler society" (very few countries now look favorably on someones personal protection dog mauling or killing a thief/trespasser) an emphasis was put on getting the job done with the minimum amount of damage possible.
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Old 04-06-2009, 04:55 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Give me some history!

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I’m not referring to when they are told to “out” I am referring to release and re-targeting at their own will

A dog that can be trained to release and re-target the arm or leg being used to hurt him has weak nerves?

I understand that the stick is there to run off some dogs, but why not have the dogs with the nerves attack the arm with the stick? Even if they have to reposition themselves for a better angle of attack?
OK I give. Bleeding SchH decoys is not the objective. In ring many train to bite the leg to reduce the chance of injury to the dog and decoy.
I got a question for you. Why do you use such a large font and bold text?

Also this is a sport, not the real thing. Knowone wants the decoy to get hurt or the dog they are traing for the last three years too have a serious, sport ending injury just to prove something.

Last edited by Edward Egan; 04-06-2009 at 05:05 PM..
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Old 04-06-2009, 04:56 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Give me some history!

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Originally Posted by Kadi Thingvall View Post
Some dogs will not stick a bite under the pressure of the stick, but instead let go, retarget, etc because of poor nerves. A dog that will bite and hold can be taught to retarget like you are describing, but a dog who won't maintain a grip under pressure because of nerve issues usually can't be taught to bite and hold. This is true not just in manwork but can also be seen in catch work and herding. Some dogs nip because that's all they have the guts to do, get in there, take a quick shot, and get the heck out. Others nip when that's all that's needed, but will bite and hold when needed also. Sometimes when not needed to

These are sports, meant to test the dogs, but none of them claim they produce a street ready dog. In terms of testing, if the sport were to encourage dogs who let go, retarget, won't take frontal pressure but circle to the back, etc how do you differentiate in trial between the dogs who are doing it because they don't have the nerve to take the pressure and hang in there, vs the dogs who do have the nerve but were trained to fight this way?

If you look at some of the REALLY old competition videos, I think mainly Sch ones are on YouTube you will see some dogs that let go and retarget. At the time I think that was probably acceptable, but as people learned more about the dogs, how to test them, etc they moved more towards requirements they felt better showed the dogs nerves, with the idea that the dogs can always be trained to work a different way, if desired.

I also would not be surprised if politics came into play, as more dogs were used for police work, and we moved towards a "kinder and gentler society" (very few countries now look favorably on someones personal protection dog mauling or killing a thief/trespasser) an emphasis was put on getting the job done with the minimum amount of damage possible.

Nice answer! I think I kind of get it. But with that being said maybe you need a SCH 4 title where the dog as proven itself but know performs stick avoidance

So are there any trials or sports that do want dogs retargeting? Does anyone know of links of video of dogs retargeting or jukeing and gliding the weapon (if you know what I mean) I canít seem to find the right search term to find any.

As far as police work if they got to send their dog and the dog is getting hit with a pipe does it matter if the bad guy gets bit in two or three locations rather than just one?
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Old 04-06-2009, 05:10 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Give me some history!

Dam 100 posts and I'm still an ankle biter!
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