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Training with food Video
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Old 03-28-2017, 06:22 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Training with food Video

I try to do short videos to help new owners and clients so I figured Id share just in case any of you can drag something you can use out of it. The specific issue in this video is using feeding time as teaching time. Nothing motivates most puppies like food. After you do this you will never throw food in a bowl and toss it to fido again without workin him a lil bit !! LOL... this is just one of a million things y ou could do while feeding. This pup is pretty drivey and so to put the brakes on that a little he is learning some clean control and getting paid in food and we benefit because he catches it quickly thanks to the motivation of the food. Sorry for the wind and the terrible cold I had but you can get the jist of it. Train on!
https://youtu.be/KKzJ6PyKf2U
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Old 03-28-2017, 11:24 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Training with food Video

!!!EXCELLENT!!!

I have been marker training with food for the past almost 13 yrs after the previous 50 yrs of "traditional" training starting with Koehler in the 50s. Still have a number of his books.

I'm not really trying to push markers simply because of the BS and "No efin way does that work" I've heard when I started with it.

The big issue is the belief that corrections aren't allowed.

The club I belonged to did NOT allow physical corrections but I saw a lot of failure for oone big reason and NOT the lack of correction.

To Many people train "because that's how I was told to do it" and not enough of really connecting with the dog, reading the dog and simple management issues.

"Traditional" works but why wait till the pup can handle the corrections if you can teach with reward.

If the need for correction is then needed then it will be needed at a much lower level because the dog understands what is wanted.

Again, not pushing to change the world. Just saying what has worked quite well for ME!
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Old 03-28-2017, 11:35 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Training with food Video

That's great, Brian!

Like Bob, I never looked back after I learned marker training.

I use corrections when needed, too -- markers do not automatically mean "no-correction training."

I will say, though, that basing training on markers (used properly) gives the dog such clarity that, as Bob says, when a correction IS needed, it's almost sure to require a lower level.

I'll always use markers; I just wish I had learned about marker training decades ago.
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Old 03-29-2017, 04:54 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Training with food Video

re : "I use corrections when needed, too -- markers do not automatically mean "no-correction training."

DOUBLE AMEN !!!!
operant conditioning can be used many ways with or without all four quadrants in play...i learned it in the early 70's way before it became widespread in dog training
...karen prior didn't invent anything new //lol//

and Bob
you're not even close to starting a war //lol//
in the quote you used from me, i NEVER mentioned the word correction
- if you can proof without ever needing a correction....GREAT !!!
- i just haven't been fortunate enuff to have a dog that could accomplish all that you did without ever requiring a correction
- i think a dog that never needs a correction probably never even needs a lead attached. when a lead goes tight either the handler is correcting or the dog is self correcting....and hopefully learning, even if the aversive is slight with minimal compulsion attached

- **and this can be done using markers rather than "yank and crank til compliance"

i have ALWAYS stressed to people i work with that a lead should be considered more of a safety item than a training tool, but that is VERY easy to say and VERY hard learn....it's too easy to pop it just because "it's there"
- but with most dogs a lead will be 'giving corrections' one way or the other because communication is traveling up and down it

make sense ?

but if you feel physical corrections are a bad thing and should be avoided in training, then THAT would be a declaration of war //lol//
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Old 03-29-2017, 07:17 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Training with food Video

Regarding corrections...corrections can take on various forms other than a lease pop or jerk and snatch. In the case of the video you will hear a sharp verbal correction (done for clarity). The correction can come in the form of non compliance means right back in the kennel rather than doing more training.

Do I personally use corrections? Id not be welcome at clubs that ban corrections.

The real grit of it is HOW and when the correction is applied...I could write a book on just that topic.... a very long boring book but a book none the less lol.

Nature dictates correction PERIOD. We all know that when we try to skirt around the natural order things aren't right.
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Old 03-29-2017, 07:18 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Training with food Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick smith View Post
re : "I use corrections when needed, too -- markers do not automatically mean "no-correction training."

DOUBLE AMEN !!!!
operant conditioning can be used many ways with or without all four quadrants in play...i learned it in the early 70's way before it became widespread in dog training
...karen prior didn't invent anything new //lol//

and Bob
you're not even close to starting a war //lol//
in the quote you used from me, i NEVER mentioned the word correction
- if you can proof without ever needing a correction....GREAT !!!
- i just haven't been fortunate enuff to have a dog that could accomplish all that you did without ever requiring a correction
- i think a dog that never needs a correction probably never even needs a lead attached. when a lead goes tight either the handler is correcting or the dog is self correcting....and hopefully learning, even if the aversive is slight with minimal compulsion attached

- **and this can be done using markers rather than "yank and crank til compliance"

i have ALWAYS stressed to people i work with that a lead should be considered more of a safety item than a training tool, but that is VERY easy to say and VERY hard learn....it's too easy to pop it just because "it's there"
- but with most dogs a lead will be 'giving corrections' one way or the other because communication is traveling up and down it

make sense ?

but if you feel physical corrections are a bad thing and should be avoided in training, then THAT would be a declaration of war //lol//

Alright Rick you are getting over my head with this quadrant and aversive talk LOL ... why do I feel like Im at a college lecture? LOL JK
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Old 03-29-2017, 08:03 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Training with food Video

screw you Brian

i think what made me rub people wrong in my proofing thread is when i said "set it up to fail". immediately they think i'm some taskmaster trying to beat a dog into breaking a command

"oh nooo; gotta set the dog up to SUCEEEEED !"

it can be a simple as giving it an alternative command when it's 'primed' to do just the opposite. of course it's simple stuff in the beginning and the bar is raised...even when doing basic feeding

at first the dog has to think about it but when it's being proofed you start seeing the dog react as if it was hardwired to respond to the command. and when you see it happen it's damn near beautiful to me and gives me a sense of pride
- Pride.....not Arrogance that i am some kind of super trainer. i'm proud of the DOG; not myself !!

but i will always see proofing as a final step and it's when i can get really creative and try and come up with scenarios where the dog 'might' fail but rarely does
- to me a great trainer is always someone who has great imagination, as opposed to the 'rinse and repeat' types, who can tend to look almost robotic. to me it's usually a sign of laziness

over the years, even our Navy base has had their share of lazy kennel masters. it shows in their handlers. right now we have some real top notch handlers and they seem like they're getting younger (maybe i'm just getting older?)

believe it or not i actually try and think up new stuff i can show the dog that it hasn't seen before...before i even start a session

and just like you i am a maniac for recalls and rarely see good ones when i start out with a dog. and my gut feeling is that not enuff imagination was used when it was supposedly trained and/or 'proofed'
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Old 03-29-2017, 08:35 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Training with food Video

Thanks for putting that up. I've got a puppy coming in May. So I'm looking at trying to train with food.
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Old 03-29-2017, 08:44 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Training with food Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick smith View Post
screw you Brian

i think what made me rub people wrong in my proofing thread is when i said "set it up to fail". immediately they think i'm some taskmaster trying to beat a dog into breaking a command

"oh nooo; gotta set the dog up to SUCEEEEED !"

it can be a simple as giving it an alternative command when it's 'primed' to do just the opposite. of course it's simple stuff in the beginning and the bar is raised...even when doing basic feeding

at first the dog has to think about it but when it's being proofed you start seeing the dog react as if it was hardwired to respond to the command. and when you see it happen it's damn near beautiful to me and gives me a sense of pride
- Pride.....not Arrogance that i am some kind of super trainer. i'm proud of the DOG; not myself !!

but i will always see proofing as a final step and it's when i can get really creative and try and come up with scenarios where the dog 'might' fail but rarely does
- to me a great trainer is always someone who has great imagination, as opposed to the 'rinse and repeat' types, who can tend to look almost robotic. to me it's usually a sign of laziness

over the years, even our Navy base has had their share of lazy kennel masters. it shows in their handlers. right now we have some real top notch handlers and they seem like they're getting younger (maybe i'm just getting older?)

believe it or not i actually try and think up new stuff i can show the dog that it hasn't seen before...before i even start a session

and just like you i am a maniac for recalls and rarely see good ones when i start out with a dog. and my gut feeling is that not enuff imagination was used when it was supposedly trained and/or 'proofed'

imagination is the key ... I do that too... I try to think of things and do things spontaneously that challenge the dog according to his ability. I do a lot of these little simple videos for new guys/gals. Its easier than trying to describe over the phone or net LOL I just havent thought about putting them up for anyone who wants to see them and Im not tech oriented either. For the old heads its boring grind it out stuff. But the new owners it can be very helpful especially when its expounded upon by other trainers here. I try to put subtle things in the videos... sometimes they happen and sometimes not lol ...I can sum up getting a dog to a level of proficiency this way and with one word ...HUMILITY... if we cannot humble ourselves our success in our training will be limited. At least in my observation.
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Old 03-29-2017, 10:47 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Training with food Video

Jeremy
i've had lots of customers where i've had them do ALL feeding by hand....including raw pieces

like it has been mentioned recently, keep the dog moving and don't fall into a robot routine of simple sits/downs/stands

short recalls, and heeling goes WAY easier when you use food for a pup, plus you are conditioning the pup to follow a lure, and that skill can come in handy for many OB drills

i got a quality dehydrator and chop/dry raw chicken. one of the best investments i've ever made. super nutritious, cheaper than quality store bought stuff and good to snack on myself...keeps for weeks in summer/humidity, etc

i was picking up empty food bowls for years before i finally slapped my head and started making the dog bring it back to me in the kitchen. great way to condition a retrieve/bring/hold, etc. different bowls made from diff materials. but don't start with your finest bone china //lol//

otoh, if you search the archives will see some VERY opposing views of training with food. i recall one that used it to teach an object guard
- you will also find the standard, "just give him his damn food and don't mess with him while he's eating!" POV

imagination will get you everywhere
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