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what's a social butterfly ?

8K views 53 replies 11 participants last post by  Matt Vandart 
#1 ·
this term gets used a lot on here and usually it's considered something negative and NOT wanted.....for a 'working dog'

starters :
1. what is your definition ?
2. how is it bad or good ?
3. is it (mostly) a trained behavior or genetic ? (i know it's usually a combo of both)

got my own defs and opinions of course, but would rather hear from others first to see if it's worth discussing and not start debates :)

everyone should have an opinion here, so maybe some lurkers will join in :)
 
#33 ·
(1)I would define a social butterfly as it sounds. A dog that flits from human to human, dog to dog and causes no harm.

(2)It is good as less training, less stress and less liability or it is bad as it is more training, more stress and more liability, depending on the dogs application.
It can also be bad in terms of dog theft.

(3)Like Bob I would suggest the genetic aspect is more of a set of genetics (temprament traits) that allows a dog to be a social butterfly and conversely another set that prevents the possibility. After that it is down to training but no amount of training (learning) will completely override genetic predisposition.
 
#36 ·
Bob
…..re : "I may have to look back over these posts but I don't recall anyone saying a "social butterfly" was genetic.”
re :….."I vote genetics!”
- that was your quote too Bob, so I thought you were clear where you stood :)

re : Jeremy’s post….
bingo

everyone with a decent knowledge of canine behavior knows the pros of a social dog, and has experienced it first hand if they’ve owned a few. but for me, to not consider the conditioned aspect and how that can and does create huge problems is would not be covering the issue in depth.
- conditioning is training and training is conditioning. for me the terms are interchangeable even tho one term might imply some "added value”
- hope we would all agree that every dog owner and handler conditions and therefore ‘trains' their dog, whether they are doing it intentionally or unintentionally.

when you spend most of your time working with other people’s dogs, the unintentional type becomes easier to see

actually it is often hard to evaluate a dog on its own, without seeing it interact with the owner or handler. with different humans it can be a totally different dog. if you don’t agree with that you won’t agree that nurture is as important as nature and further discussion is pointless.

whether it’s how much gas comes in the tank or how it uses the gas its got, both are necessities for the car to run.....duh :)
- but if you base the limits on gentics, you are imposing limits, whether valid or not, just like most people will stop for gas b4 they run out. in most cases i’ve seen, that’s the point the owner or handler stops conditioning....

and for me, canines respond more to nurture than almost any other creature on the planet !

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have fun girls !!!! i'm sure you can spin this into a joke or gif. or try and relate it to a song or tv show one way or another //rotflmao//
 
#43 ·
Nicole, based on some of your comments on this thread…

** the primary point of reference regarding my comment on the topic is I said I could not define what I could not identify with. That said, me saying my response otherwise was = basically what everyone else said, was me extending a genuine attempt to try and keep the thread moving.

is this a serious question you want me to respond to ?

** considering matters of context and relevance, certainly. If I don't want a response I indicate that by saying: rhetorical question, just saying', no need to reply, etc. in other words, it's pretty obvious.

i've written about this before so i'm a bit surprised you would ask

** your surprise I suspect is accompanied by an assumption on your part that I read everything you post. Not everything is a constant and as a result I am inactive or do not participate on the forum for brief or extended periods of time. This is a transitional period of time for me in Alaska - hence, I spend more time online and visit the forum while conducting my research.

not asking you to play nice ...just seriously asking

** the fact that I give you any attention at all should offer you some indication that I am rewarding specific behaviors. The attention (reward) you receive may not always be to your liking; nevertheless it is clear you thrive off engagement, even a bit of conflict at times - thus I offer it.
 
#40 ·
just like with people (but not children), you should always play with your dog, but if you are actually trying to make a conscious effort to teach it something, it should never be play only

if you don't mix in the serious side, that is one surefire way to condition (aka: train) a social butterfly and make it a problem dog for others even if it's not a problem dog for you. regardless of its basic genetics
 
#42 ·
I disagree to an extent that extent being there are some dogs where this is not true. All Sali's training was and mostly still is through play and she was still an antisocial asshole, same with my dobe Tilly. Not saying my personal subjective opinion negates what you are saying just pointing out it is not a rule.
As a side note both these dogs are Civil and both are edgy.
 
#44 ·
Matt
i get what you were saying
"All Sali's training was and mostly still is through play" indicates there might be at least a tiny bit of 'serious' involved
- keyword being 'through' ... that's how i interpret the word

nor did i say it was a rule .. just that it is a VERY easy (and common) way to condition a social butterfly

the only "rule" i stated was you should always play with your dog
 
#46 ·
Matt
some further ramblings regarding "playing with dogs"

would you agree there are different routes to conditioning an anti-social asshhat as compared to a social dog ?

my examples would be
1. a dog who is overly serious and reactive and bordering on full anti-social. that particular dog would not be one i would play with when i had it out in public. because i tried that route and got burned a few times. a bull terrier i thought would lighten up....it damn near nailed someone but fortunately only got me. did it with a gsd and my own dog too and made zero progress.
2. a social dog will get a lot of play when i'm out, but it will be very close to getting a correction for losing focus on me during the play

of course these are for "outside' situations, where handler control is more of an issue than on a home base or neutral area, but that's where i do a lot of work once i'm past foundation stuff

what say you ??
 
#47 ·
like all dog terms. different defs for different people

i have met many many people who think sitting in a chair and tossing a ball to their dog, who runs after it, grabs it, runs around with it like a freshly butchered chicken for five minutes, finally gets bored and brings it back and drops it 5 meters from its owner, who then gets up and fetches it, and then comes back sits down and tosses it again, and repeats this as many times as this sentence runs on........is "playing with their dog" :-(
 
#48 ·
Playing with my dog is just that. And if she wants to drop the ball 10 feet from me so I have to wander over and pick it up and then run ahead to catch it as it lands, I'm all good with that. She also likes to play bite the leash on walks and I am less fond of that game, but will sometimes indulge her.

I had someone yell at me in a park once that I should make my dog sit before I threw the ball. It made me think about why I don't do that, and I realized that for me it's okay if my dog makes the rules and gets to play the game the way they want to sometimes.

If I incorporate play into training it looks very different, and she looks very different. We play by my rules then. And yet, if it's not fun for her, then it's not play.

How is that related to being a social butterfly?

Also, rick, please define what you mean by a social butterfly. If you have already, I apologize for missing it, but I can't seem to find it in your posts.
 
#49 ·
I'm like that too Leslie, especially with the house dogs :)

Well the way I dealt with it with Tilly is gave her a boot in the ribs, basically put her in her place CM style and that was the end of that in terms of being an asshat but she will never be a social butterfly.
You can do that with Dobes/bull breeds I would not suggest it for a Mal or anymore at all as it goes, just saying that is what I did and why I feel I can say CM is an idiot, I have learned better ways and so should he really.
 
#51 ·
just for the record
for me "playing with a dog" assumes it is interactive

if it isn't, i consider it allowing a dog to self satisfy. including when it isn't playing with itself

i also assume most regular members here do it without thinking, but a ton of people don't have a clue what interactive means in regards to dogs

i never lose hope that lurkers and newcomers sometimes read these threads since the forum god selects a lot to send out to the world in their wonderful newsletter along with their other advertising spam :-(
 
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